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Old 12-03-2011, 01:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Regarding failure rates in homeschooling. These numbers are skewed because no one reports when students are returned to public schools. Homeschool has a decided advantage in counting failures because those who fail just quit and send their kids back to the public schools where they are counted as failures!!!!

As I've said before, given demographics and the fact that those who don't do well with it don't stick with it, homeschooling should be delivering FANTASTIC results yet, homeschooling is just better than average. All indicators are that these kids should be head and shoulders above the average public schooled child simply because of demographics and the fact that only those for whom homeschooling works stick with it yet we're not seeing that. I have to wonder if these kids wouldn't have done better with a combination of involved parents and public schools.
Don't forget the kids who quit school to homeschool.

Please show us the stats you are using that compare homeschooled kids to public schooled kids.
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
Don't forget the kids who quit school to homeschool.

Please show us the stats you are using that compare homeschooled kids to public schooled kids.
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Ok, Dorthy, I will state it again:

Since only about 2.9 percent of the students are homeschooled, an accurate percentage failure rate with such a low sample size, compared to the 97.1% of students that are in public schools (or private), would be relatively meaningless.

I can spell it out more simply, but not much.
It is all essentially irrelevant, because so few students (percentage-wise)are homeschooled that most people don't even care.

This thread is about the cost of homeschooling, not whether it works or not. We all have our own opinions.

All I know is that, for the fraction of my property taxes I pay to send students to school, ($18,000 a year for schools alone), I am well on my way (well half way, so I make up the difference) to send my student to a private school. (The property taxes go away when moving to unincorporated land).

So in summary, I believe that homeschooling is quite inexpensive. If you hate paying property taxes to support the school system that you would not use because of homeschooling, move.
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, Dorthy, I will state it again:

Since only about 2.9 percent of the students are homeschooled, an accurate percentage failure rate with such a low sample size, compared to the 97.1% of students that are in public schools (or private), would be relatively meaningless.

I can spell it out more simply, but not much.
It is all essentially irrelevant, because so few students (percentage-wise)are homeschooled that most people don't even care.

This thread is about the cost of homeschooling, not whether it works or not. We all have our own opinions.

All I know is that, for the fraction of my property taxes I pay to send students to school, ($18,000 a year for schools alone), I am well on my way (well half way, so I make up the difference) to send my student to a private school. (The property taxes go away when moving to unincorporated land).

So in summary, I believe that homeschooling is quite inexpensive. If you hate paying property taxes to support the school system that you would not use because of homeschooling, move.
I was asking to see the stats that Ivory was basing her post on. No need for you to respond unless you have those stats that show how homeschoolers are doing compared to school kids. I don't need for you to spell out anything for me.

I don't have a problem paying property taxes to support my local public schools. In fact I just voted for a slight tax increase to support the schools in my district.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
Don't forget the kids who quit school to homeschool.

Please show us the stats you are using that compare homeschooled kids to public schooled kids.
It's really not needed. That homeschoolers are disproportionately middle class families with intact households is a no brainer. That they are involved in their children's educations is also a no brainer. Being from a middle class two parent household where your parents are involved in your education is a prescription for success in education. I would predict this group will fare well no matter how they are taught. The only way you can make this better is if mom is educated. Then you're holding four aces.

Unfortunately, data for public schools isn't split out by demographics so we can't compare just middle class, two parent households with involved parents to homeschoolers. We have to compare homeschoolers to everyone who attends public school. Because public schools include kids from demographics that would predict difficulties in learning as well as those comparable to homeschoolers, logically, public school should fare worse and it does but ONLY slightly so. Given the percentages of kids who come from broken homes, low SES and have parents who are not involved in their educations, I would argue that homeschoolers should be doing A LOT better than public schools. They are better than average but that's all they can claim. I would hope so given the demographic they are working with.
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
I'm asking you for a source for these types of statements. You either have one or you don't.
It's a logical argument. Public school data isn't broken out by demographics and it includes a lower demographic than typically homeshools. SES and involved parents are two of the biggest predictors of student success (common knowledge). Homeschoolers tend to be middle class and have enough income to afford one parent at home (they don't need a second income to make ends meet). Homeschoolers tend to be two parent households (another predictor of academic success). Homeschoolers have three things in their favor: SES, two parents in the home and they are involved with their children's education. This combination would predict success in any educational environment.

Exactly what do you want data for? That SES and parenteal involvement impact academic success? That homeschoolers tend to be middle class two parent families? That homeschoolers tend to be involved in their children's educations? Or that schools have to serve everyone, high SES, low SES, two parent households, one parent households, no parent households, parents who care and parents who dont'? I'm not seeing anything here I need to prove with data. While there is data comparing scores of homeschooled children to traditionally schooled children it's meaningless because the demographics of the two sets are so different. Homeschoolers tend to come from a smaller subset of the population than the public school serves and it is a subset that one would, logically, predict academic success for. Homeschool statistics also benefit from the fact that when homeschooling doesn't work, parents quit homeschooling and send their kids back to the public school where they are counted (in many states, testing is also optional and, logically, one would conclude that those whose children are doing well would be more likely to have them tested so this is not an apples to apples comparison any way you slice it.). Public schools can't quit the students who don't do well in them. They have to keep them unless the parents choose to move them. Also, public schools have to test all students including those in special ed.

There are lots of reasons that homeschooling should deliver stellar results that have nothing to do with homeschooling itself. The odds are stacked in homeschooling's favor before book one is opened. Therefore, one cannot conclude that homeschooling works. The conclusion has to be that kids who you'd predict to do well anyway appear to do well when homeschooled but this same subset would do well in public schools so we really can't conclude anything about homeschooling itself. As a teacher, knowing how well students in this demographic do in my classes, I'd have to speculate that homeschooling may or may not do harm. I have no reason to believe it is an improvement, in general. Whether it is in individual situations is not debatable.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 12-04-2011 at 06:30 AM..
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
It's a logical argument. Public school data isn't broken out by demographics and it includes a lower demographic than typically homeshools. SES and involved parents are two of the biggest predictors of student success (common knowledge). Homeschoolers tend to be middle class and have enough income to afford one parent at home (they don't need a second income to make ends meet). Homeschoolers tend to be two parent households (another predictor of academic success). Homeschoolers have three things in their favor: SES, two parents in the home and they are involved with their children's education. This combination would predict success in any educational environment.

Exactly what do you want data for? That SES and parenteal involvement impact academic success? That homeschoolers tend to be middle class two parent families? That homeschoolers tend to be involved in their children's educations? Or that schools have to serve everyone, high SES, low SES, two parent households, one parent households, no parent households, parents who care and parents who dont'? I'm not seeing anything here I need to prove with data. While there is data comparing scores of homeschooled children to traditionally schooled children it's meaningless because the demographics of the two sets are so different. Homeschoolers tend to come from a smaller subset of the population than the public school serves and it is a subset that one would, logically, predict academic success for. Homeschool statistics also benefit from the fact that when homeschooling doesn't work, parents quit homeschooling and send their kids back to the public school where they are counted. Public schools can't quit the students who don't do well in them. They have to keep them unless the parents choose to move them.

There are lots of reasons that homeschooling should deliver stellar results that have nothing to do with homeschooling itself. The odds are stacked in homeschooling's favor before book one is opened.
I understand all of this. No need to keep on repeating yourself. The research that I have seen shows homeschoolers scoring 15% to 30% higher on academic achievement tests which is more then the "just better then average" that you keep stating. When comparing SAT and ACT scores of homeschooled vs public schooled kids homeschoolers tend to score slightly better. These two groups are more comparable. I was asking for a source because I wanted to see what you were basing your "just better then average" statements on.
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:44 AM
 
4,267 posts, read 5,143,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
There are lots of reasons that homeschooling should deliver stellar results that have nothing to do with homeschooling itself. The odds are stacked in homeschooling's favor before book one is opened. Therefore, one cannot conclude that homeschooling works. The conclusion has to be that kids who you'd predict to do well anyway appear to do well when homeschooled but this same subset would do well in public schools so we really can't conclude anything about homeschooling itself. As a teacher, knowing how well students in this demographic do in my classes, I'd have to speculate that homeschooling may or may not do harm. I have no reason to believe it is an improvement, in general. Whether it is in individual situations is not debatable.
What does this say about public schools then? The students who one would predict to do well would do well well no matter how they were schooled. You can't give credit to the schools for their success. I have no reason to believe that public school is an improvement over homeschooling for this group of children.

Take out all of the kids who would do well academically no matter how they were schooled and then we can see how well schools are doing with the kids who do need extra help in order to succeed. How well are the schools doing with that subset of children?
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
What does this say about public schools then? The students who one would predict to do well would do well well no matter how they were schooled. You can't give credit to the schools for their success. I have no reason to believe that public school is an improvement over homeschooling for this group of children.

Take out all of the kids who would do well academically no matter how they were schooled and then we can see how well schools are doing with the kids who do need extra help in order to succeed. How well are the schools doing with that subset of children?
IF the data were split by demographic, we could compare the homeschooled set to the same subset in public schools and determine if homeschooling helps or hurts. Since the data is not parsed that way, we have to rely on logic. Logic says that the subset that is homeschools should do very well academically. Yet, we're not seeing seeing that. Where are the fantastic results homeschoolers should be shouting about from the housetops?

Given that they have demographics on their side, those for whom it doesn't work don't stick with it (they send their kids back to the public schools to be counted.), and testing is optional, we should be seeing FANTASTIC results. Where are they?

My, personal, opinion is that, as a class, homeschooled kids would, probably, do better if they were in school and their parents stayed involved in their educations but that's just my opinion from working with kids in the same demographic in my classroom. These kids do well. And that has more to do with them than me. While they do need teachers who are subject matter experts, they are pulling themselves up. My best students are easy to teach because they're eager to learn. They've been taught that education is valuable and they know their parents are watching. I could deliver FANTASTIC results if you gave me classes full of kids from middle income, intact families whose parents are involved in their educations. My job would be a dream job too. I could teach deeper and teach more and my students would be scoring very well on the state tests (I think better than they are now because I could really get into critical thinking). These are the kids who pull school scores up. My best guess would be you'd need to compare homeschooled kids to the top half of traditionally schooled kids to get close to what you should expect. My gut says they wouldn't compare if we did that. I know how high I can take this demographic, unfortunately, for them, my classes are not tracked. They would do better if they were placed in classes with their peers. Unfortunately, parents often lack the subject matter expertise to help them soar so homeschooling isn't, usually, the answer here. My students will tell you they benefit from my ability to answer their questions. This is the number one compliment I get from parents. That I am able to answer pretty much any question they throw at me (ok they got me the other day when I could not explain why mercury is liquid at room temperature but, usually, they don't get me. I still haven't found a decent answer on line to this so anyone who has one, please PM me. I'd love to walk into class tomorrow with an answer.)

I can't speak to other schools but we put the struggling set into academic assist classes where they get more individual attention and have time to work on classwork in school. Typically, the issue with struggling students is they don't do the work. If you don't practice, you won't do well (this is where parental involvement helps). Given that our graduation rate is 99% and 96% of the students from my school go on to 4 year universities, I'd say we do well by struggling students.

As far as what demographics says about good schools, it's no secret that schools in higher SES areas have students who do better than schools in lower SES areas. SES is a big indicator of success, as is involved parents. Parents are also more likely to be involved in higher SES areas because they value education (they likely are in the SES they are because of their own educations).

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 12-04-2011 at 08:05 AM..
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:58 AM
 
4,267 posts, read 5,143,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
IF the data were split by demographic, we could compare the homeschooled set to the same subset in public schools and determine if homeschooling helps or hurts. Since the data is not parsed that way, we have to rely on logic. Logic says that the subset that is homeschools should do very well academically. Yet, we're not seeing seeing that. Where are the fantastic results homeschoolers should be shouting about from the housetops?

Given that they have demographics on their side, those for whom it doesn't work don't stick with it (they send their kids back to the public schools to be counted.), and testing is optional, we should be seeing FANTASTIC results. Where are they?

My, personal, opinion is that, as a class, homeschooled kids would, probably, do better if they were in school and their parents stayed involved in their educations but that's just my opinion from working with kids in the same demographic in my classroom. These kids do well. And that has more to do with them than me. While they do need teachers who are subject matter experts, they are pulling themselves up. My best students are easy to teach because they're eager to learn. They've been taught that education is valuable and they know their parents are watching. I could deliver FANTASTIC results if you gave me classes full of kids from middle income, intact families whose parents are involved in their educations. My job would be a dream job too. I could teach deeper and teach more and my students would be scoring very well on the state tests. These are the kids who pull school scores up. My best guess would be you'd need to compare homeschooled kids to the top half of traditionally schooled kids to get close to what you should expect. My gut says they wouldn't compare if we did that.
The best comparison would be throught the SAT/ACT tests results that I mentioned in a pp.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I can't speak to other schools but we put the struggling set into academic assist classes where they get more individual attention and have time to work on classwork in school. Typically, the issue with struggling students is they don't do the work. If you don't practice, you won't do well (this is where parental involvement helps). Given that our graduation rate is 99% and 96% of the students from my school go on to 4 year universities, I'd say we do well by struggling students.
Congratulations. The graduation rate in my district stands at 49%
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