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Old 12-01-2011, 12:43 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,770,906 times
Reputation: 2524

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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
MN has had statewide open enrollment for over 15 years; any student can go to any public school in the state for free. It doesn't help the bad schools, it doesn't help the underperforming students score better on tests. The Minneapolis schools still have under 50% of their students graduate from high school. They still have the worst test scores in the state. The issue is, those that need it the most, don't take advantage of the program because they just don't care. They just don't see the point in getting a good education when they can sit back and take government hand outs. It's sad to say but it is true. Vouchers work on the same principal and won't change the situation either. On paper it sounds like a good idea, in reality, even after a generation of students have moved through the system, it hasn't done anything for the bad schools.

Now, for people that care about getting a good education, it's nice to not have to move if you want to send your child to a different school for some reason. In our high school, for example, we have a lot of kids that open enroll to take advantage of our band program. Another school in our area has a lot of kids that open enroll for their speech and debate programs and yet another school for their top rated wrestling program. All of these schools are some of the best in the nation so academics are fantastic but it allows kids to excel in other areas as well.

I would never want to see this program go away, even if the bad schools aren't helped by it because it is helping a large number of other students.
Thanks for the reply. Good reply I must say. I think this brings up another point to consider, people that care and those that do not.

Example: I spent 32 years in the Army and we moved a few times during that time.
We raised three daughters. We had them in one of the top districts in the nation, Fairfax, and one of the lowest rated systems in Tennesse. Did it make a different with our children during their school years? No. Why? Because my wife and I were like hawks on our kids homework and added extra activities related to their education like taking them to museums, visited historic sites, sightseeing cities around where we live in the states and in Europe. Results? All graduated from High School with good and solid grades. The younges one graduated at the top ten in HS and in colllege and it is about to graduate with a 4.0 GPA on her masters this december.

We always made sure they never moved in the middle of a school cycle. At times I moved first and whne they finished they joined me in my new assignment. My point? As you said, parent involvement is critical.

As far as your point, I understand what you are saying too though. My intent was not to say that ALL districts are bad. Actually, there are some great districts. Why? My view is that the people in the district are the biggest factor. There are some districts that are very education oriented and they demonstrate so with involvement, just giving money is not enough.
Actually, after your comment I will modify my points stated before. The local counties should decide what is best for their kids. In many cases the problem is that the teachers unions are so strong that they have enough clout and power to overpower parents in neighborhood to do what they think is best.
Also, I think you have read cases where a county the people vote against funding for school education improvements over some other less important project. Well, it serves them well if they do not get quality education, sorry about those kids I must say.

However, in the general skim of things I still hold the view that competition does lead to better quality and performance. If parents in a neigorhood demand a school district to institute a system of performance rating that reward good teachers, that may help. Maybe a combination of vouchers, private contracting, and public schools also. That give parent choices. Take care.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:50 PM
 
12,465 posts, read 27,182,283 times
Reputation: 6952
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Yes. In PA and now in MD. Of course those folks here are the Superintendant of my system and his underlings. All of whom, along with the School Board, received raises this year. Teachers have not had either a COLA or step for 3 or 4 years.
You won't hear a teacher complaining in my neck of the woods in PA about teacher salary. Starting salary is $48,000. Our administrators all voted for a pay freeze for themselves for the current year's budget. How about that?!
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:57 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,238 posts, read 39,504,706 times
Reputation: 40792
Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
You won't hear a teacher complaining in my neck of the woods in PA about teacher salary. Starting salary is $48,000. Our administrators all voted for a pay freeze for themselves for the current year's budget. How about that?!

I meant the teacher criticizers.

Here, our Superintendant has described teachers as "dumb deadbeats" and "human cattle". This is in meetings with community groups and elected officials.
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:06 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 52,581,924 times
Reputation: 10476
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Thanks for the reply. Good reply I must say. I think this brings up another point to consider, people that care and those that do not.

Example: I spent 32 years in the Army and we moved a few times during that time.
We raised three daughters. We had them in one of the top districts in the nation, Fairfax, and one of the lowest rated systems in Tennesse. Did it make a different with our children during their school years? No. Why? Because my wife and I were like hawks on our kids homework and added extra activities related to their education like taking them to museums, visited historic sites, sightseeing cities around where we live in the states and in Europe. Results? All graduated from High School with good and solid grades. The younges one graduated at the top ten in HS and in colllege and it is about to graduate with a 4.0 GPA on her masters this december.

We always made sure they never moved in the middle of a school cycle. At times I moved first and whne they finished they joined me in my new assignment. My point? As you said, parent involvement is critical.

As far as your point, I understand what you are saying too though. My intent was not to say that ALL districts are bad. Actually, there are some great districts. Why? My view is that the people in the district are the biggest factor. There are some districts that are very education oriented and they demonstrate so with involvement, just giving money is not enough.
Actually, after your comment I will modify my points stated before. The local counties should decide what is best for their kids. In many cases the problem is that the teachers unions are so strong that they have enough clout and power to overpower parents in neighborhood to do what they think is best.
Also, I think you have read cases where a county the people vote against funding for school education improvements over some other less important project. Well, it serves them well if they do not get quality education, sorry about those kids I must say.

However, in the general skim of things I still hold the view that competition does lead to better quality and performance. If parents in a neigorhood demand a school district to institute a system of performance rating that reward good teachers, that may help. Maybe a combination of vouchers, private contracting, and public schools also. That give parent choices. Take care.
We live in a state where the teacher's unions are VERY strong and about 99% of our teachers are members. Honestly, I think the unions have done VERY good things for the schools, mainly the benefits teachers get through the unions so schools can pay them more. Also, overall, we have the top schools in the nation, there are really only a handful of 'bad' districts in our state. Academically going from one school to the next isn't going to be a big difference at all so we do have competition that way. I still hold that vouchers will not achieve the results that they are intended to achieve--that is make "bad" students good students or make 'bad' schools into good schools.

I would still LOVE to see two schools swap places. Take the top high school in your state and pair it with the worst high school in your state--leave the teachers at their respective schools, swap out the kids. I think in ONE YEAR the best school will now be the worst school and the worst school will be the best--not because of the teachers, administration, etc. but because of the students attending those schools.

I will also point out that getting 'top grades' at a bad school really doesn't mean much in most cases. Prove those top grades on your ACT/SAT tests and in college (not saying that this is your case but the case in general). In many schools a 3.0 will be MUCH better then a 4.0 because the coursework is more challenging, and you see the results on college entrance tests. The 3.0's at our school are still scoring above national averages on the ACT, for example but kids in other areas with 4.0's can't even get a 22 or a 24 on an ACT. The 4.0's in our school are getting 35's and 36's.

I know of own woman who works for a highly scientific company located in a state that consistently ranks in the bottom 3 in the nation for pretty much every educational standard there is. Her company asked her to go around and talk to parents and students about the importance of getting a good education. She just gave up after about a year. No matter what she said, what statistics she pulled in, the parents and students couldn't get past that they were getting A's and B's so they must have been getting a good education yet the average ACT score for this state is only 20....
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,770,906 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
We live in a state where the teacher's unions are VERY strong and about 99% of our teachers are members. Honestly, I think the unions have done VERY good things for the schools, mainly the benefits teachers get through the unions so schools can pay them more. Also, overall, we have the top schools in the nation, there are really only a handful of 'bad' districts in our state. Academically going from one school to the next isn't going to be a big difference at all so we do have competition that way. I still hold that vouchers will not achieve the results that they are intended to achieve--that is make "bad" students good students or make 'bad' schools into good schools.

I would still LOVE to see two schools swap places. Take the top high school in your state and pair it with the worst high school in your state--leave the teachers at their respective schools, swap out the kids. I think in ONE YEAR the best school will now be the worst school and the worst school will be the best--not because of the teachers, administration, etc. but because of the students attending those schools.

I will also point out that getting 'top grades' at a bad school really doesn't mean much in most cases. Prove those top grades on your ACT/SAT tests and in college (not saying that this is your case but the case in general). In many schools a 3.0 will be MUCH better then a 4.0 because the coursework is more challenging, and you see the results on college entrance tests. The 3.0's at our school are still scoring above national averages on the ACT, for example but kids in other areas with 4.0's can't even get a 22 or a 24 on an ACT. The 4.0's in our school are getting 35's and 36's.

I know of own woman who works for a highly scientific company located in a state that consistently ranks in the bottom 3 in the nation for pretty much every educational standard there is. Her company asked her to go around and talk to parents and students about the importance of getting a good education. She just gave up after about a year. No matter what she said, what statistics she pulled in, the parents and students couldn't get past that they were getting A's and B's so they must have been getting a good education yet the average ACT score for this state is only 20....
I am not of the view that falsum in uno falsum in toto. In other words all right or all wrong.
You can cite the union in your location as a good one, great and good for you. I am talking as an overall picture that can include positives but overall I do not see it a such.
Looking at human nature, do you believe that competition does not breed more excellence and performance? If not, then you may be the type that leans towards more socialist programs. I do not.

Also, you missed my point, it seems. My point about my daughter was actually to support your point about parents that care and are involved with their kids. Either you missed my point or ignored it. My daughter? Her grades and work ethic we encouraged was to the point that West Point offered a the opportunity for her to go with them. Now, you probably come up with something to try to counter that also. You can cite examples over and over. My example is about parent involvement. Do you agree that parent involvement is important or not?
The bottom line I espouse something that does not agree with the overall system in the country, not just what Hometown USA has as you cite. I can counter with other counties that can support my view and then you can cite yours. The point, what is the overall picture in the nation? My suggestions are based on that. Take care.
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:30 PM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,490,673 times
Reputation: 32249
Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
. Do you ever hear people in real life talking like this??
I am sometimes shocked by what I read here. I can assure you I read things here that I've NEVER heard people in real life saying. Teachers, students or parents.

I believe the term for my reaction is "gobsmacked".
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Old 12-02-2011, 11:35 PM
 
Location: USA
12 posts, read 10,052 times
Reputation: 13
Teacher is god if he would want , make a child a perfect person , it depends upon teacher. Good teacher provides good education your student and nice way to make a good person in your life.I feel today who r u due to my teacher. My teacher is the best teacher of the world according to me.But some students don't like him.
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:11 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,770,906 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmetrics View Post
Teacher is god if he would want , make a child a perfect person , it depends upon teacher. Good teacher provides good education your student and nice way to make a good person in your life.I feel today who r u due to my teacher. My teacher is the best teacher of the world according to me.But some students don't like him.
I agree that teachers can be a great influence in students lives. However, there is more to it that shapes a young mind and that includes the home environment, the neighborhood, the culture of his/her family, ethnicity, geographic location of where he lives, etc. Very often a teacher can do her/his best with all her/his heart but once they go home the home envrionment may not have a positive influence on that child and so many of the other factors I listed above.
In other words we all are a product of our environments. With this I have to make a disclaimer because people tend to read statements in a all wrong or all right mode. You can reply and tell me about a friend or loved one that grew up in a crime ridden neighborhood and he ended up a great citizen despite that he grew up with drug addicted father, a mom that sells sex, etc. and they still made it great. I am aware of that and I have read and seen many of those cases. I am talking as general picture we all are a product of our environment. Our own traits that we inherit or learn (nature and nurture) are also a big factor. I believe your personality is set once you reach the age of two or three if I am correct. How does the personality of an individual affect how he will end up as an adult?
As I said your statement does have validity but there is more to it in the development of a child. Take care.
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