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Old 12-06-2011, 05:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Nope. What passes for AP chemistry today, simply, isn't much higher than what I had for chemistry in high school. I was shocked to see that many of my favorite labs, from high school, are now AP labs. I'd love to do them but I can't justify the expense now that they're "AP" labs and my class isn't AP.

AP chemistry in my school is done without labs. Students watch videos of labs (talk about dummying down).
Again, that is at YOUR school, which is the point we have been trying to make. YOUR experience is NOT typical for AP classes around the country. Like I said previously, our kids have already gone through one lab notebook this year. They do several labs each week, not watching videos, DOING the labs.

If you are the chemistry teacher, why aren't you conducting the labs in class?? Why are you showing them videos? I now see WHY your students are bored. They are watching TV, they are not learning.

 
Old 12-06-2011, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
I think that CC is really an issue of "Your mileage may vary." With the various community colleges with which I've had experience in 3 states, the quality has varied wildly from teacher to teacher, but I will say this: even the most rigorous CC course was nothing compared to the easiest, introductory-level coursework at my state university...to say nothing of the coursework at the private university at which I studied for graduate work. Again, my experience is not universal, but there was a stark, obvious, profound difference in quality among the classes offered at the three institutions, enough so where I think a parent would be very well-advised to speak to a college admissions counselor in person before (possibly) wasting a student's valuable time and money.
I think universities push for AP over CC because they can waive for electives with AP and still get their money. If they take a CC class, they have to give actual credit.

I know universities respect CC classes. You should have seen the heavy recruiting at my CC. I had three schools offering me scholarships (two half paid and one full paid) based on my performance at the CC (after nearly flunking out of high school). If CC were looked down upon, that would not have been the case. I also know that I was head and shoulders above my peers who went directly to the university including the ones who took AP classes in high school. THAT was because, instead of using classes like calculus as weeding classes, they actually taught me calculus.

Universities will tell you that AP is better because they have a better chance of getting more money out of you if you take AP rather than the actual class at CC.
 
Old 12-06-2011, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,754,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Again, that is at YOUR school, which is the point we have been trying to make. YOUR experience is NOT typical for AP classes around the country. Like I said previously, our kids have already gone through one lab notebook this year. They do several labs each week, not watching videos, DOING the labs.

If you are the chemistry teacher, why aren't you conducting the labs in class?? Why are you showing them videos? I now see WHY your students are bored. They are watching TV, they are not learning.
Sorry, AP is AP and the AP exams are the AP exams. They don't change the exams for our kids and our kids pass. Do you, seriously, think they give kids from my school a different exam??? They don't.

WITHOUT labs, students are passing the AP chemistry exam. Seriously, labs were a HUGE part of my college level chemistry courses. We spent, at least, 4 hours a week in lab. AND many of the now "AP" labs are labs I did in my regular chemistry class in high school. AP is just yesterday's normal track now that everything has been dummied down. The fact such a high percent of your students can take these classes is proof that they've been dummied down to the point that so many kids CAN take them.

If it were my choice, a chemistry class that can be taught and passed without labs wouldn't even be considered for college credit...however, college has been dummied down so perhaps, today, it is...It wouldn't have been when I was taking chemistry in college.
 
Old 12-06-2011, 05:48 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,172 posts, read 39,297,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Nope. What passes for AP chemistry today, simply, isn't much higher than what I had for chemistry in high school. I was shocked to see that many of my favorite labs, from high school, are now AP labs. I'd love to do them but I can't justify the expense now that they're "AP" labs and my class isn't AP.

AP chemistry in my school is done without labs. Students watch videos of labs (talk about dummying down).

Then it isn't AP Chem and shouldn't be presented as such. The teacher had to submit a syllabus for approval by CollegeBoard during the AP audit process. That would have listed the labs (18-22 are required and are those are set forth in the requirements to be called an AP class) and CollegeBoard authorized that class using the information from the teacher's syllabus submission.

If caught, your school is in danger of being deauthorized by CollegeBoard to offer AP Chem or any other AP labelled class.

AP Course Audit - Home Page

AP Central - AP Chemistry Course Home Page
 
Old 12-06-2011, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,754,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Then it isn't AP Chem and shouldn't be presented as such. The teacher had to submit a syllabus for approval by CollegeBoard during the AP audit process. That would have listed the labs (18-22 are required and are those are set forth in the requirements to be called an AP class) and CollegeBoard authorized that class using the information from the teacher's syllabus submission.

If caught, your school is in danger of being deauthorized by CollegeBoard to offer AP Chem or any other AP labelled class.

AP Course Audit - Home Page

AP Central - AP Chemistry Course Home Page
Nope. It is AP Chemistry. It's taught online through a university and students take the AP exam as their final. When I was first asked to coach students taking this class, I thought I'd be doing the labs with them. That's not the case. The only thing I do is post their grades and communicate with the university regarding their progress but that is fed to me from the program.

The class is AP and the kids who take it pass the exam. They do computer simulations for labs. It's done this way because so few students are interested in AP Chemistry (and likely because the labs are about $1000 for one class if purchased in kits). We teach other AP courses where there is more demand.
 
Old 12-06-2011, 05:57 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,172 posts, read 39,297,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Nope. It is AP Chemistry. It's taught online through a university. When I was first asked to coach students taking this class, I thought I'd be doing the labs with them. That's not the case.

The class is AP and the kids who take it pass the exam. The only thing I do is post their grades and communicate with the university regarding their progress but that is fed to me from the program.

Unless they changed it this year labs are still required for on-line courses. That was the rock that broke my AP Chem offering apart. I can't do labs for Chem (not a Science teacher) and our now former Chem teacher refused to do them. That's why, finally, he's our former Chem teacher.

Again, the requirements for labs may have changed.
 
Old 12-06-2011, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,754,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Unless they changed it this year labs are still required for on-line courses. That was the rock that broke my AP Chem offering apart. I can't do labs for Chem (not a Science teacher) and our now former Chem teacher refused to do them. That's why, finally, he's our former Chem teacher.

Again, the requirements for labs may have changed.
I'd love to do them. I have fond memories of doing some of those labs in high school.

Apparently, students can do the labs on line. I was given on of the AP lab CD's at a seminar I attended. They're well done but, IMO, no replacement for doing the actual labs. However, the cost keeps many schools from doing the labs. It's hard to justify spending $1000 on just a few students taking the class. Especially when there are, acceptable, simulations available.
 
Old 12-06-2011, 06:56 PM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,385,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
AP chemistry in my school is done without labs. Students watch videos of labs (talk about dummying down).
I am shocked.
 
Old 12-06-2011, 07:13 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,172 posts, read 39,297,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
I am shocked.

As am I. It's changed since I last looked. On-line providers "may" substitite suitable lab sims.

What's funny is that the syllabus guidelines really emphasize the lab base of the course. The operative phrase used is "college level lab experiences".
 
Old 12-06-2011, 07:17 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 52,454,643 times
Reputation: 10476
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Sorry, AP is AP and the AP exams are the AP exams. They don't change the exams for our kids and our kids pass. Do you, seriously, think they give kids from my school a different exam??? They don't.

WITHOUT labs, students are passing the AP chemistry exam. Seriously, labs were a HUGE part of my college level chemistry courses. We spent, at least, 4 hours a week in lab. AND many of the now "AP" labs are labs I did in my regular chemistry class in high school. AP is just yesterday's normal track now that everything has been dummied down. The fact such a high percent of your students can take these classes is proof that they've been dummied down to the point that so many kids CAN take them.

If it were my choice, a chemistry class that can be taught and passed without labs wouldn't even be considered for college credit...however, college has been dummied down so perhaps, today, it is...It wouldn't have been when I was taking chemistry in college.
Obviously not if your kids never do labs--labs are kind of important in chemistry. You have 6 kids in your AP class, the TOP 6 kids in your school. You say they "pass" the AP exams but what is passing? There is no pass/fail in AP, you just get a score. What does your school consider passing?

A high percentage of the kids in our school, and ALL of the schools around us can take the AP classes because they have been prepared and challenged since kindergarten and they are ready to take these classes. Again, YOUR experience is out of the norm here, not the rest of us.

I agree, your class should not be for college credit, but no AP class is for college credit, the AP test MIGHT get kids college credit, big distinction. Again, our kids' high school chem class is much more difficult then my college chem classes were, at a highly selective, private school, taking a chemistry major chem class. Your community college chemistry class may well have been easier then your high school class, but that isn't a college level class either. Medical schools and even engineering schools these days do NOT accept community college classes (or AP test scores) for science credit, at least the better schools do not.

I would suggest you go visit a good school someday and see what they do.
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