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Old 12-05-2011, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Well I guess they'll have to cut back on academic education and funnel all their money to special ed.
Special mandates certain requirements and they will have to cut elsewhere to fund those mandates.

Such a huge increase. I wonder if anyone has done studies.
I was just having this convo the other day. Growing up I just dont think were so many kids with autism. I had some exposure to special needs children since my sister was one and even in her class the kids had physcal disabilities.

Now autistic kids seem everywhere. Both of our neighbor's kids are autistic and it is so sad. It mist be something in the environment the explosion simply doesn't make sense.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
I was just having this convo the other day. Growing up I just dont think were so many kids with autism. I had some exposure to special needs children since my sister was one and even in her class the kids had physcal disabilities.

Now autistic kids seem everywhere. Both of our neighbor's kids are autistic and it is so sad. It mist be something in the environment the explosion simply doesn't make sense.
I think it is more to do with different diagnosis standards for Autism. Back when, kids that were considered autistic were the non-verbal kids that sat in the corner and rocked and rocked and rocked. Now the "spectrum" is recognized and most kids with "autism" are high functioning individuals. Back when a lot of these kids would have just been called "slow" or some of the lower functioning kids were called "retarded". They were still there, just called something else. I have 2 cousins that are most defiantly autistic but growing up (they are in their 50's now) they were just "mentally retarded" and "slow". One functions on the level of a 5 or 6 year old and the other lives independently, never really did well in school, dropped out of high school, got married to a wonderful man, they have 2 children who are now both medical doctors. She still struggles with day to day things like math and reading but was able to do enough to make sure her kids got what they needed to succeed.
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:05 PM
 
4,135 posts, read 9,172,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Well I guess they'll have to cut back on academic education and funnel all their money to special ed.
Special mandates certain requirements and they will have to cut elsewhere to fund those mandates.

Such a huge increase. I wonder if anyone has done studies.
The best study that could be done would be to find out what really is needed for special ed. and how much you can cut out the pork in the system. Many kids do need special ed. However, many parents and teachers abuse the system -- mostly as a way to get kids more individual teacher time and help. It doesn't always work so well. I taught; see what it is like when you go into a school and you have kids mainstreamed into "least restrictive environment" and they are pulled out up to 3 times a day for different "special" teachers... then who wins? The kid still has to make up the lost work.
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:19 PM
 
15,382 posts, read 17,015,252 times
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Originally Posted by BuffaloTransplant View Post
The best study that could be done would be to find out what really is needed for special ed. and how much you can cut out the pork in the system. Many kids do need special ed. However, many parents and teachers abuse the system -- mostly as a way to get kids more individual teacher time and help. It doesn't always work so well. I taught; see what it is like when you go into a school and you have kids mainstreamed into "least restrictive environment" and they are pulled out up to 3 times a day for different "special" teachers... then who wins? The kid still has to make up the lost work.
In theory, the child should be doing the work with his special ed teacher at least in elementary school. My grandson is pulled out, but his special ed teacher coordinates with his classroom teacher. He does his spelling words and spelling test in special ed because he needs some accomodations (his handwriting is terrible and he takes longer to write the words). He also needs less distractions and because there are only 4 to 6 children in the special ed classroom, he can manage. He actually is getting good grades on all his academic work. Admittedly, he is only in first grade, but he was nonverbal up until last summer.

The idea is to help him be able to become independent and to have a job when he grows up. If we do not do that, he will end up having to be supported by SSDI and SSI as an adult. We are very hopeful that he will manage since he is smart. He is autistic and he won't grow out of that or become NT anytime, but he can have a successful life as long as we actually educate him to live up to his potential.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
In theory, the child should be doing the work with his special ed teacher at least in elementary school. My grandson is pulled out, but his special ed teacher coordinates with his classroom teacher. He does his spelling words and spelling test in special ed because he needs some accomodations (his handwriting is terrible and he takes longer to write the words). He also needs less distractions and because there are only 4 to 6 children in the special ed classroom, he can manage. He actually is getting good grades on all his academic work. Admittedly, he is only in first grade, but he was nonverbal up until last summer.

The idea is to help him be able to become independent and to have a job when he grows up. If we do not do that, he will end up having to be supported by SSDI and SSI as an adult. We are very hopeful that he will manage since he is smart. He is autistic and he won't grow out of that or become NT anytime, but he can have a successful life as long as we actually educate him to live up to his potential.
In 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and up, (even to middle school) when a student is pulled out multiple times for special reading, special math, speech, OT/PT.... you get the idea... they spend more time out of the class than in it. The person who has to make time to write all the plans for the student based on classwork is initially the class teacher. Then they go to the special ed. teacher to be adapted. Then the child gets the special class teacher's version and either has to come back to work in the regular class and that duplication of explanation takes time from the rest of the class. In an "ideal" world, mainstreaming works. In a class with 28+ kids, it generally does not -- unless a special teacher is willing to really work at it and not just concentrate on the few students s/he services. [While your grandson may full well need accommodations, I have seen accommodations where average students are pushed by the wayside so the mainstreamed can have those accommmodations. The very bright kid gets ahead, the special ed student is pushed ahead by most special ed. teachers -- so, who is hurt? The average student.] I do NOT believe that "least restrictive environment" is the answer for many special ed students; I believe if the student needs too much help or accommodation, they hurt the learning process for the average student and should be in something like a 12 to 1 (or more help) class. That is the opinion of a retired teacher who saw schools go from not having special ed to "least restrictive" and watched the average student get less and less of my time -- while many special ed teachers strolled the halls picking up and delivering kids more than teaching them.

You should stop in and observe -- WITHOUT NOTICE -- and see how your grandson is in the class and with the special ed. teacher. A child who just progressed "past non-verbal" and "will need SSI and SSDI" (by your admission) needs more than mainstream, at least for the first few years. Is he really interacting with the class and doing the work, or just sitting? Is the special ed. teacher really doing most for him? The school is doing him a disservice mainstreaming him. He is NOT getting all the help he needs. Does socialization trump learning? I think it should be the other way around.

Last edited by BuffaloTransplant; 12-06-2011 at 12:29 AM.. Reason: correction
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BuffaloTransplant View Post
In 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and up, (even to middle school) when a student is pulled out multiple times for special reading, special math, speech, OT/PT.... you get the idea... they spend more time out of the class than in it. The person who has to make time to write all the plans for the student based on classwork is initially the class teacher. Then they go to the special ed. teacher to be adapted. Then the child gets the special class teacher's version and either has to come back to work in the regular class and that duplication of explanation takes time from the rest of the class. In an "ideal" world, mainstreaming works. In a class with 28+ kids, it generally does not -- unless a special teacher is willing to really work at it and not just concentrate on the few students s/he services. [While your grandson may full well need accommodations, I have seen accommodations where average students are pushed by the wayside so the mainstreamed can have those accommodations. The very bright kid gets ahead, the special ed student is pushed ahead by most special ed. teachers -- so, who is hurt? The average student.] I do NOT believe that "least restrictive environment" is the answer for many special ed students; I believe if the student needs too much help or accommodation, they hurt the learning process for the average student and should be in something like a 12 to 1 (or more help) class. That is the opinion of a retired teacher who saw schools go from not having special ed to "least restrictive" and watched the average student get less and less of my time -- while many special ed teachers strolled the halls picking up and delivering kids more than teaching them.

You should stop in and observe -- WITHOUT NOTICE -- and see how your grandson is in the class and with the special ed. teacher. A child who just progressed "past non-verbal" and "will need SSI and SSDI" (by your admission) needs more than mainstream, at least for the first few years. Is he really interacting with the class and doing the work, or just sitting? Is the special ed. teacher really doing most for him? The school is doing him a disservice mainstreaming him. He is NOT getting all the help he needs. Does socialization trump learning? I think it should be the other way around.
He will ONLY need SSI or SSDI if we don't give him a good education. He is actually well ahead in math skills and has been reading since he was 2. The problem is he needs extra time to process verbal directions. Seriously, I find that if I slow down and *wait* for him to get what I say, he completes tasks well. However, at the pace the regular class goes, he will have problems with verbal directions. This is especially true since flourescent lights flicker and other kids *will* talk over the teacher. His daddy didn't have a dx, but he probably has aspergers. He is a very successful chemical engineer. I can see my grandson taking after him, but his dad never had any verbal problems. His dad did have social problems and was bullied a lot in the early grades. I am glad that his teachers here in elementary school not only don't allow it, but are proactive in teaching the kids in the school to accept differences. Oh, yeah, and NOTE - non-verbal today is NOT non-verbal in the days when I went to school given the technology that can give our kids a voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8cEt...yer_detailpage

My Son Jeremy’s Story Chantal Sicile-Kira – Author, Speaker, Autism Expert



He is interacting with the class. He actually had a best friend in K who would help him when he needed help (a cute little girl - she moved away). When I went to his classroom for meet the teacher night, there were some little boys who were cheering about his being in their class this year. He goes to specials with his regular class too - science lab, computer lab, art, music, PE and library.

Actually socialization *does* trump learning in the early grades. If children cannot work in groups and socialize, they will be at a distinct disadvantage later on.

Note that unfortunately, we have de-emphasized social learning throughout our society. This is why schools have so many problems. Kids are NOT learning character at home so they need to learn it at school. Kids *should* be socializing with kids of all ages, but they don't even in school.

I think peer modeling is a good thing. Having him in a class with regular peers and a smaller class would certainly be better, but putting kids with ONLY special ed kids is just wrong. It's the same thing as putting kids only with their own race or their own religion (if you want that do private school).

I don't believe that the average student is hurt by this any more than he would be hurt if he had a child in class in a wheel chair or a child who was blind and used a braille reader.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:51 PM
 
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Years ago, I listened to a German professor express his dismay with the American educational system. He was referring to the system as a whole, not just the SpEd portion. He said that Germany simply did not have the resources to support so many adults who were practically unemployable.[/quote]


I have to wonder what did/does Germany recommend killing them before they are born ?Or do they instiutions to put them like what they did in the 1930's ?It's not the indiviuals fault they were born with a disability.
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Old 12-07-2011, 12:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
This is just another step in stopping people from being institutionalized because society doesn't want to meet their needs.
I'm with you on this one Nana. You and I are both old enough to remember when people with these problems/challenges/insert-PC-term-here were put into rooms and forgotten. I often wonder how many Temple Grandins we had locked away back then.

The system may not be perfect but it's a heck of a lot better than what this country had 50 years ago.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardianlady View Post
Years ago, I listened to a German professor express his dismay with the American educational system. He was referring to the system as a whole, not just the SpEd portion. He said that Germany simply did not have the resources to support so many adults who were practically unemployable.

I have to wonder what did/does Germany recommend killing them before they are born ?Or do they instiutions to put them like what they did in the 1930's ?It's not the indiviuals fault they were born with a disability.[/quote]

Oh for crying in the night.

No, he was not talking about killing anyone before they are born or putting people with disabilities into institutions.

He was talking about our educational system where a third of those who go on to college need remedial coursework in English and/or math before they can take a community college course where high school graduates can't figure out what 10% off is or write a coherent sentence. Ask anyone who is involved in hiring young adults these days. Many of them are practically unemployable. We used to be able to absorb the barely literate into manufacturing jobs. Not much of that any more.

I am not defending Germans or their educational system. Don't know much about it. Do know that West Germany bailed out East Germany some time ago and now appear to be poised to bail out other countries as well. My understanding is that students in many European countries are tracked--you are on the college track or the vocational track. Not sure that's such a great idea, but at least when students graduate they are able to earn a living.
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
He actually had a best friend in K who would help him when he needed help (a cute little girl - she moved away)...

I don't believe that the average student is hurt by this any more than he would be hurt if he had a child in class in a wheel chair or a child who was blind and used a braille reader.
As the mother of three children, I can tell you for a fact that having students in a classroom who require extra attention does indeed affect the education of the other students. While it may help them become more caring people, it also absorbs time and energy that could be devoted to their own education.

For example, the little girl who helped your grandson when he needed help. Was she in school to help your grandson get an education or there to get an education herself? I can't tell you how much time our three spent helping other children learn to take turns, learn to read, do math flashcards, understand science projects, etc.

What about a student who is disruptive, and/or in and out of the classroom constantly? How does that affect the ability of the other students to concentrate on their work?

How about field trips? I have chaperoned no end of field trips where I have been the one-on-one with a child who needed special assistance. We've had to cut trips short because of misbehavior and melt downs, depriving the other students of the rest of the experience. Some field trips were out of the question.

What about the teacher's time and energy? When she has five or six students who require on-going monitoring and special attention, how much time and energy does she have left to divide among the other 25 or 30 students?

Having students with special needs in a classroom certainly does change the experience for all the students.
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