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SpEd costs. Whether we provide it or not, it costs. We either support students in learning to be independent, self-supporting adults. Or we support them the rest of their lives through lower productivity and increased need for services and disability benefits.
oh please. they dont cost if you dont spend money on them. spare me the non-quantifiable costs such as "lower productivity" and also spare me the bs of "increased need for services" as if we could expect this education cost to reduce the long term need for benefits. im not buying that one bit.
oh please. they dont cost if you dont spend money on them. spare me the non-quantifiable costs such as "lower productivity" and also spare me the bs of "increased need for services" as if we could expect this education cost to reduce the long term need for benefits. im not buying that one bit.
I was a Voc Rehab counselor for years and worked with no end of people with disabilities who were perfectly capable of supporting themselves if they had had a decent education.
We worked with them to get the remedial education and vocational training/education they needed and many are now self-supporting. Others are supporting themselves sufficiently to cut down way on their SSI checks as well as decrease their dependence on other support services.
In fact, one study I read pointed out that every $1 spend on Voc Rehab saves $11 in govt. funding over the next five years. Imagine what the savings are over a lifetime. Dare to dream what they would be if the student did not flounder about for years before getting to Voc Rehab but rather graduated from high school with a decent education and a career direction.
Many were mainstreamed and as others have pointed out, though they were pulled from classes to get specialized instruction, they then got behind in their mainstreamed classes.
Just plunking a kid in a classroom and expecting the teacher to make special accommodations and the other students to help out is not as successful an approach to educating students with disabilities as one might imagine.
while normal kids lose in many, many ways in public school systems.
I agree. Our kids went to school knowing how to take turns, write their name, count, sound out letters, behave in public... We didn't send them to school to learn to socialize, we'd helped them learn social skills from the day they were born. And we continued helping them learn to interact with others with sports, volunteer activities, Sunday School, scouting, etc. well as practicing appropriate social behavior in our home.
We sent our kids to school for an education. Period.
What we found is that the students who arrived knowing how to behave, count and read are expected to be peer models and assist those who are still developing these skills.
It's no wonder even our top students have trouble competing academically with students from other countries.
I agree. Our kids went to school knowing how to take turns, write their name, count, sound out letters, behave in public... We didn't send them to school to learn to socialize, we'd helped them learn social skills from the day they were born. And we continued helping them learn to interact with others with sports, volunteer activities, Sunday School, scouting, etc. well as practicing appropriate social behavior in our home.
We sent our kids to school for an education. Period.
What we found is that the students who arrived knowing how to behave, count and read are expected to be peer models and assist those who are still developing these skills.
It's no wonder even our top students have trouble competing academically with students from other countries.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. School is for education. Period.
if it fails that....Top students and those whose parents can find a way will get out of the public system due to the lowering of standards and lack of academic competition and into private, parochial or homeschooling in order to achieve. These kids are the ones who will be competing with other top students, including those from other countries.
Having students with special needs in a classroom certainly does change the experience for all the students.
Yep. It changes the experience for the better, imo.
1. Kids learn to accept that differences are not *bad*
2. Children become competent to help each other.
3. The child with the disability can help other children - for example, my grandson is extremely bright in math and can help others learn that.
4. It forces teachers to be more creative and to individualize the work. That benefits *all* the students.
5. If there is an aide in the classroom, that aide often is involved with all the kids, not just the special needs kids, so all the kids get more attention.
6. It forces the teacher to make the classroom more positive.
I think it is more to do with different diagnosis standards for Autism. Back when, kids that were considered autistic were the non-verbal kids that sat in the corner and rocked and rocked and rocked. Now the "spectrum" is recognized and most kids with "autism" are high functioning individuals. Back when a lot of these kids would have just been called "slow" or some of the lower functioning kids were called "retarded".
Golfgal, while you're right that some people are being differently labeled, I can tell you as a classroom teacher that things are significantly different. For the first decade I had maybe one child that, in retrospect, I think was autistic. Now I have one or two every year. There is more to it than a changed diagnosis.
As the mother of three children, I can tell you for a fact that having students in a classroom who require extra attention does indeed affect the education of the other students. While it may help them become more caring people, it also absorbs time and energy that could be devoted to their own education.
For example, the little girl who helped your grandson when he needed help. Was she in school to help your grandson get an education or there to get an education herself? I can't tell you how much time our three spent helping other children learn to take turns, learn to read, do math flashcards, understand science projects, etc.
What about a student who is disruptive, and/or in and out of the classroom constantly? How does that affect the ability of the other students to concentrate on their work?
How about field trips? I have chaperoned no end of field trips where I have been the one-on-one with a child who needed special assistance. We've had to cut trips short because of misbehavior and melt downs, depriving the other students of the rest of the experience. Some field trips were out of the question.
What about the teacher's time and energy? When she has five or six students who require on-going monitoring and special attention, how much time and energy does she have left to divide among the other 25 or 30 students?
Having students with special needs in a classroom certainly does change the experience for all the students.
ITA. I cannot teach as much material when I have SpEd students in my classroom...I also have less time for all the other students because of the SpEd kids in the classroom...I have less planning time for the entire class because I have to take time to plan special activities for my SpEd kids. It is not unusual for it to take three days, in my class with SpEd kids, to complete an assignment that takes one day in my other class and most of the kids still don't get it.
That said, my SpEd kids are some of the kids I like teaching the most. They're more likely to be willing to learn in spite of their difficulties. As a group, they put in more effort (obviously with less results) but that doesn't change that everyone else pays a price, including me, when you put them in my classroom. I like teaching them but they should be in a class by themselves that can pace for their needs instead of slowing down the entire class. Unfortunately, that costs too because there's no way you could put more than 15 SpEd kids in a lab based class with only two adults in the room. While even that is risky, it's no riskier than having 12 SpEd kids in a class of 24 and only two adults.
I don't think having SpEd kids in the classroom, necessarily, teaches tolerance. The kids who feel that they are having their education stolen from them aren't looking at the SpEd kids with compassion. They're irritated that they have to be in that class. Just yesterday, I overheard one student say "I HATE THIS CLASS" as she was leaving my room yesterday. I looked at her and, jokingly, said "WHAT!! You HATE CHEMISTRY!!" and she backpeddled and clarified that she loves chemistry and likes me as a teacher she just can't stand the class she's in. Unfortunately, she's in my team taught class. I spend over half of my time dealing with behavior issues in the class so there are days when not much teaching gets done.
Yep. It changes the experience for the better, imo.
My heart goes out to you. You want the best for your grandson and you believe that he would do best mainstreamed into a regular classroom even if he needs to be pulled out of class for specialized instruction because, as you noted, he learns best in small groups of six or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
1. Kids learn to accept that differences are not *bad*
While your grandson may be a wonderful ambassador for accepting differences, many children with special needs are a distraction in the classroom. An earlier post mentioned a child who screamed every time she didn't get to be first. My kids have had classmates who made noise constantly, who were frustrated at being in a situation they were not able to handle and lashed out, who... The other kids didn't didn't think these students were "bad" either before or after, but who are we kidding to think these kids were accepted as regular kids by the other students?
Temple Grandin has said that her school years were the worst parts of her life because of the teasing about being a "nerdy kid" and being called a "tape recorder," because she would repeat things over and over again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
2. Children become competent to help each other.
3. The child with the disability can help other children - for example, my grandson is extremely bright in math and can help others learn that.
Your grandson may be in school to learn to become a helper, mine were not. Mine were there to get a decent education so that they too could earn a living at some point.
While the kids may work on group projects together and learn from one another and I'm all for that, much of the learning is done individually.
What would you think of an educational system where instead of your grandson being challenged to develop his strong math abilities, he spent his math time doing flashcards with students who were struggling to grasp basic concepts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
4. It forces teachers to be more creative and to individualize the work. That benefits *all* the students.
"Forces" teachers to be more creative? Teachers are some of the most creative people I have ever met. Some spend endless hours developing strategies to engage each student in the material. But to think they can individualize classroom instruction for each of 25 to 30 student is asking the impossible. They are human after all and have to sleep and eat occasionally. No, what happens is the SpEd kids get the Individualized Educational Plan (IEP) accommodations and the rest get group instruction with the time and creativity that is left over.
Imagine a classroom in which every student was on an IEP and being pulled out for individualized instruction. Where the teacher had to remember to stand by the desk of one student because he required that close presence to focus, and had to always call on another student first because that student couldn't deal with being called on second, and, well, you get the picture. Individualized instruction and accommodations are humanly possible with a small group of students, not an entire classroom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
5. If there is an aide in the classroom, that aide often is involved with all the kids, not just the special needs kids, so all the kids get more attention.
In all my years of volunteering in the classroom, I have rarely observed an aide involved with any of the students besides the one (or ones if the district is strapped for cash and assigns one aide to two students) they are assigned to assist. Now, the rest of the students get more attention from the teacher because the teacher does not have to be constantly dealing with that particular student. I would suspect that an aide who was paying attention to the other students would be told to focus on her charge.
More often than not, my volunteer time was spent with the students who required additional attention who did not have aides.
I would encourage you to volunteer regularly in your grandson's classroom. It is a great way to observe first hand how things are progressing and to free up the teacher to be more creative and offer individualized instruction to the rest of the students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
6. It forces the teacher to make the classroom more positive.
"Forces" the teacher to create a more positive classroom? How on earth does having up to a half a dozen students who require accommodations and specialized instruction "force" a teacher to create a more positive classroom. I am flummoxed by this one.
I am stunned by the rapidly rising number of children diagnosed on the autism spectrum, with mental health disorders, ADHD, etc. and wonder how we are to going to afford the specialized services these children need and deserve. I think mainstreaming works best for some, not so much for others.
But lets not kid ourselves that mainstreaming is a benefit for the rest of the students. The more time and energy devoted to the SpEd students, the less there is available for the rest.
From a financial standpoint it is a potential disaster. The district has only so much to work with and the more money devoted to aides, pull-out instruction and other SpEd services, the less there is for the rest of the students. Larger class sizes, fewer librarians, etc. Only so many pieces to the pie.
Realizing that a decent education is the best shot our kids have, many families have been pulling their kids out of public schools. What happens to public school funding when they no longer have broad support in the community?
I understand and sympathize with a grandmother wanting the best for her grandson. I too want the best for my children and grandchildren and for all children, really. But there's no use kidding ourselves while we try to figure this out.
As a mother of two sons, one that is extremely bright and a high achiever and our other son who is now an adult, I find this discussion just misses the mark. I see a lot of characteristics of ALL children just being pinned on those with special needs. My older son was constantly held back from learning because of the behavior problems in the classes exhibited by "normal" children that took up so much time and because "normal" children were slow in comparison to him and he was tested for gifted but fell short and had to stay in the classroom with kids that, strictly because of poor parenting, took from his education. To assume that negative behaviors are exclusive to special needs kids is insane! Our younger son attended schools in 3 states and probably went a total of maybe 4 years between the ages of 4 and 21 because of the behaviors and actions he was learning from both the "normal" and special needs children. My child with DS was in both self-contained and regular classrooms and my child is not disruptive. My child, unlike many "normal" children has appropriate social skills and they could not have been learned in school. Homeschooling really paid off for our son with Down syndrome because we did more than "warehouse" him as the schools tried to do. Think an IEP would be great for everyone? Well, once written up, the schools I saw, threw them in the file drawer until next year. Everyone seems to think that the kids with special needs are really getting over. I fought the system and lost every time. All the "rules" always had exceptions and my son was always one of those exceptions. So, you don't have to be concerned that my son took away from the education of your child! Have they eliminated the sports programs yet? Time to get back to reading, writing and arithmetic but then, from the papers I saw my son bring home after being corrected or not the teachers, they would have to go back to school to learn those skills. Teaching used to be a calling but not anymore! If you check, you'll find, just like everything else now, that most of your money goes for admin costs.
As a mother of two sons, one that is extremely bright and a high achiever and our other son who is now an adult, I find this discussion just misses the mark. I see a lot of characteristics of ALL children just being pinned on those with special needs. My older son was constantly held back from learning because of the behavior problems in the classes exhibited by "normal" children that took up so much time and because "normal" children were slow in comparison to him and he was tested for gifted but fell short and had to stay in the classroom with kids that, strictly because of poor parenting, took from his education. To assume that negative behaviors are exclusive to special needs kids is insane! Our younger son attended schools in 3 states and probably went a total of maybe 4 years between the ages of 4 and 21 because of the behaviors and actions he was learning from both the "normal" and special needs children. My child with DS was in both self-contained and regular classrooms and my child is not disruptive. My child, unlike many "normal" children has appropriate social skills and they could not have been learned in school. Homeschooling really paid off for our son with Down syndrome because we did more than "warehouse" him as the schools tried to do. Think an IEP would be great for everyone? Well, once written up, the schools I saw, threw them in the file drawer until next year. Everyone seems to think that the kids with special needs are really getting over. I fought the system and lost every time. All the "rules" always had exceptions and my son was always one of those exceptions. So, you don't have to be concerned that my son took away from the education of your child! Have they eliminated the sports programs yet? Time to get back to reading, writing and arithmetic but then, from the papers I saw my son bring home after being corrected or not the teachers, they would have to go back to school to learn those skills. Teaching used to be a calling but not anymore! If you check, you'll find, just like everything else now, that most of your money goes for admin costs.
While all kids exhibit some behaviors associated with SpEd kids, as a teacher, I can tell you you can mutliply by 10 when you have a class with more than 3 or 4 SpEd kids. I have one with 12. There are days when very little teaching gets done. I've had my regular students come to me and ask me to start kicking kids out of the class so they can learn. The problem with SpEd kids is that if one person does something, so do the others. If one person makes a funny noise, 6 others follow suit...If one talks out of turn, I have 12 talking out of turn....Then I'm stopping what we're doing and spending the next 5 minutes getting the class back on task. They feed off of each other's negative behaviors. It's like they're just looking for an opportunity to do something or say something. As soon as one does, it's like an erruption. They figure I can't send them all to the office and, I suspect, they think that because they are SpEd, they should get a pass. I have threatened to give the entire class detention and probably will have to do so before long because the threat is no good if I don't follow through. I feel bad for my regular ed kids in this class. They don't deserve this.
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