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Old 12-28-2011, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBanson View Post
I don't like what happened to the Native Americans. But we need to admit that if they're going to survive, they HAVE to get off those reservations!

I've done mission/construction work on the San Carlos Apache Reservation in Arizona. The Native Americans can go to college there FOR FREE, but they don't. They won't. We need to start asking ourselves - and asking them - WHY?

Their problem is not the lack of money. Unfortunately, it plunges far deeper than that.
Perhaps, college is our way not their way....
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:58 AM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
20,551 posts, read 22,715,248 times
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Default Poverty paves a road to despair

An article by Michelle Alexander discusses the impact of leaving those in povertyy behind..

« From the Archives: Unwrapping the Holidays


Michelle Alexander on The New Jim Crow and the school-to-prison pipeline

December 20, 2011 by rethinkingschoolsblog


QUOTE from Michelle's Article--

But also, for these children, their life chances are greatly diminished. They are more likely to be raised in severe poverty; their parents are unlikely to be able to find work or housing and are often ineligible even for food stamps.

Read it here---

Michelle Alexander
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:32 AM
 
24,714 posts, read 26,785,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Tell the wealthy to stay out of my public school. We don't need no think tank telling us how to educate our youth. We need economic reform not educational deceptions.


This brings up the question of what causes poverty in the US. I would say it's the abandonment what used to be seen as common middle class values. Things like getting married before you had kids, avoiding divorce at all costs, etc.

Starting in the 1960s we started susidizing out of wedlock child rearing with welfare, section 8 housing, etc. It became socially unacceptable to tell poor people their value system was keeping them impoverished. People who do so get labeled nasty names like "racist", "cruel", etc.

Finally, some moderates and liberals are breaking ranks with liberal orthodoxy:

Forget Juno. Out-of-wedlock births are a national catastrophe. - Slate Magazine
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:48 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,906,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
This brings up the question of what causes poverty in the US. I would say it's the abandonment what used to be seen as common middle class values. Things like getting married before you had kids, avoiding divorce at all costs, etc.

Starting in the 1960s we started susidizing out of wedlock child rearing with welfare, section 8 housing, etc. It became socially unacceptable to tell poor people their value system was keeping them impoverished. People who do so get labeled nasty names like "racist", "cruel", etc.

Finally, some moderates and liberals are breaking ranks with liberal orthodoxy:

Forget Juno. Out-of-wedlock births are a national catastrophe. - Slate Magazine

In that case, then why was there poverty in the 50s among people who married before they had kids and didn't divorce? Many of these poor people worked very hard and saved all they could, yet they never rose out of poverty. How so?
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:39 PM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
20,551 posts, read 22,715,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
This brings up the question of what causes poverty in the US. I would say it's the abandonment what used to be seen as common middle class values. Things like getting married before you had kids, avoiding divorce at all costs, etc.

Starting in the 1960s we started susidizing out of wedlock child rearing with welfare, section 8 housing, etc. It became socially unacceptable to tell poor people their value system was keeping them impoverished. People who do so get labeled nasty names like "racist", "cruel", etc.

Finally, some moderates and liberals are breaking ranks with liberal orthodoxy:

Forget Juno. Out-of-wedlock births are a national catastrophe. - Slate Magazine
Very possible. But the question is does society punish the children by withholding services if they do not "chose" to follow common middle class values?

I believe the more we coherce and intimidate the kids to accept a life style outside their comfort zone the more they will rebel to prove us wrong.

We need to seriously reconsider any program that issues ultimatums and then wonders why "obedience and conformity" is lacking. At the same time we are evaluating teachers effectiveness on percentage of students to pass standardized tests and issue sanctions to teachers whose lower economic students' scores are unacceptable? Now the students are losing and so are the teachers.
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,771,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Tell the wealthy to stay out of my public school. We don't need no think tank telling us how to educate our youth. We need economic reform not educational deceptions.


Quoted from the article by Judith Warner.

Diane Ravitch, the education policy specialist and reformed charter school advocate, made the same argument in a trenchant New York Review of Books article this fall, where she enumerated the many reasons that school reform as we’ve come to know it needs to be called into question. For one thing, like so much else “the best and the brightest” have brought us in recent years, many of the reform movement’s results don’t stand up to scrutiny. After reviewing the data, she writes: “Most research studies agree that charter schools are, on average, no more successful than regular public schools; that evaluating teachers on the basis of their students’ test scores is fraught with inaccuracy and promotes narrowing of the curriculum to only the subjects tested, encouraging some districts to drop the arts or other nontested subjects; and that the strategy of closing schools disrupts communities without necessarily producing better schools.”


Read more: Judith Warner: Why Are The Rich So Interested in Public School Reform? | TIME Ideas | TIME.com
I agree with her but would take it even further it's not poverty but culture. Poor white boys on welfare score better than black boys who are not on welfare.

Also some of the best schools in NYC for example are in Chinatown which has a poverty rate that rivals Harlem.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:08 PM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
20,551 posts, read 22,715,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
I agree with her but would take it even further it's not poverty but culture. Poor white boys on welfare score better than black boys who are not on welfare.

Also some of the best schools in NYC for example are in Chinatown which has a poverty rate that rivals Harlem.

Are these students in the same school?

I found this ---
For example, 49 percent of black elementary students enrolled in majority white schools passed reading tests, a result similar to the performance of blacks in low-poverty schools. Meanwhile, only 39 percent of black elementary students in majority black schools passed the same tests.

Referenced from this site (http://ccsr.uchicago.edu/news_citations/070405_chicagotribune.html - broken link)--
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,255 posts, read 4,908,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Diane Ravitch stays on point when she keeps bringing up the fact that the correlation between school achievement and poverty overlap almost completely. It's a point that most in this country don't want to acknowledge. We ignore it at our peril.
This is very true. It is far easier to adopt the belief that a district with poor test results lacks quality teachers.

After we are done spending billions of dollars on magnets, charters, testing, data collection and analysis, as well as catering to special interest groups who see the schools as a business opportunity, we will still be faced with addressing the root causes that are not easy to fix and difficult to discuss.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,881,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
This is very true. It is far easier to adopt the belief that a district with poor test results lacks quality teachers.

After we are done spending billions of dollars on magnets, charters, testing, data collection and analysis, as well as catering to special interest groups who see the schools as a business opportunity, we will still be faced with addressing the root causes that are not easy to fix and difficult to discuss.
Because the root causes are outside of the school system. Throwing money at the school system in hopes of fixing what is broken outside of the school system doesn't work. The numbers show it.

A kid is in school for 6 hours a day for 5 days a week for 10 months of the year.
And we think we can overcome their problems in that time if we just plow more money into education ?
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,548,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
Your argument doesn't make sense. You are saying that because YOUR parents taught you pride and respect, that's how it was for your whole generation. Next you are saying that this current generation is ruined because they played video games. My son's and nephews all play video games, in fact, it's the one commonality among them, and all are either in college or graduates of college and working. ALL majored in or are majoring in math or computer associated majors, save one.

I agree with poverty making a huge difference. In PA schools are mostly locally funded and you can clearly see the difference of the schools with reduced and free lunch students and then schools just 15 minutes away with more affluent families.
I agree with you. My son played games but excelled beyond what I expected at school. I wasn't worried if he would eat or have a roof over his head. I concentrated on education, it was my first priority because I had nothing else to worry about. Games were just what he did with his own time, after school work, like a any hobby.
I've hung out with poverty for longer than a day or so and you can really see the obstacles they face with education. Some manage despite but most do not. It's a lot of weight to carry. Just look at the recent thread from a person who wonders if they should go to college or work to help their mom. They just have different circumstances and decisions than those who are not well off. When you are worrying if you can feed your children, put clothes on their backs, keep your job, you're preoccupied. Education isn't always 1st on your immediate priority list.
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