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Old 12-31-2011, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
I agree with her but would take it even further it's not poverty but culture. Poor white boys on welfare score better than black boys who are not on welfare.

Also some of the best schools in NYC for example are in Chinatown which has a poverty rate that rivals Harlem.
I also agree that it's the way we view education in this country but we view everything as a whole this way. Asian cultures have a totally different set of values than that of most Americans. We come from a very defensive society, protecting individual rights and beliefs. Most Asian countries have a group mentality. They represent with their personal decisions. Respect for their surroundings including teachers, elders, etc. I doubt we would have much success in changing the values of Americans to help education. We will have to work within what is capable for us. It's a shame but I don't see how we could be successful doing so.
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:32 PM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Because the root causes are outside of the school system. Throwing money at the school system in hopes of fixing what is broken outside of the school system doesn't work. The numbers show it.

A kid is in school for 6 hours a day for 5 days a week for 10 months of the year.
And we think we can overcome their problems in that time if we just plow more money into education ?
Again, throwing money will NOT fix the problem. YES the problem originates outside the school. So does society get to turn its back and say
"Cowboy up urban youth, once you become like us all will be good."
I believe most people in the poverty discussion are talking a new paradigm. I believe that by recognizing each student as being an individual, not all destined for college, not all destined for skilled trades, not all having to master every task in an identical way, society as a whole will be better served.
Just as we have AP / Honors classes in high school to meet the needs of the top performing students, we need SOMETHING to address the needs on the other end of the scale.
Shouldn't we just stop with excuses, justifications and antiquated rationalizations and start asking WHAT CAN WE DO, and not WHY WON'T THEY DO?
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Old 12-31-2011, 05:28 PM
 
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There are kids today that come to school unprepared. It's the type of unpreparedness that makes or breaks the classroom environment.

A child that comes to school unprepared without a pencil and proper notebook can be dealt with. School breakfast programs provide nourishment. But many children come to school unprepared to deal with any type of discipline or structure. They have no concept of raising their hand and waiting to be called on. They simply yell out and speak whenever they want to. They get out of their seat and walk around despite being told not to and repeated warnings have no effect on them. Some kids have been sheltered to the degree that they have never dealt with disappointment or not being the number one priority in the room at all times. If everything going on is not specifically about them, they interrupt and demand full attention. Multiply these issues by 30+ kids and you have an unmanageable classroom.

It's these types of situations that make the learning environment almost impossible. If the child has no structure at home, no one available (or interested) to help them with their homework, parents who will attack anyone who allows their child to experience disappointment (in the form of being spoken to about doing better, getting a low grade, etc.) then all the money in the world won't cure that.
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Old 12-31-2011, 05:58 PM
 
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Sometimes it is the teaching.

My kids go attend/attended a higher poverty school in an area that is more affluent, with a university.

In the lower elementary grades, kids aren't learning the basics at all. My oldest kid had a goofy math curriculum in which the teacher did very little actual teaching. Guess what happens in a community like ours. Many parents end up teaching math to the kids on their own, or they hire tutors....so these kids do well. The kids that come from higher poverty background don't always have parents that are able to do this. One should be able to expect that if you send your child to school, the teacher will actually be teaching. There was very little discussion of grammar, etc.....how do kids learn if the teacher never gives feedback.

One of my kids had a teacher that was gone several times a month....nothing happened when the substitute was there. This same teacher sneaked out of the building one day before school was actually over..nothing happened.

Kids from higher poverty backgrounds are much more affected by poor teaching, if they don't have a parent at home that is able to correct for what they should be getting at school.
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Old 12-31-2011, 10:01 PM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleur66 View Post
Sometimes it is the teaching.

My kids go attend/attended a higher poverty school in an area that is more affluent, with a university.

In the lower elementary grades, kids aren't learning the basics at all. My oldest kid had a goofy math curriculum in which the teacher did very little actual teaching. Guess what happens in a community like ours. Many parents end up teaching math to the kids on their own, or they hire tutors....so these kids do well. The kids that come from higher poverty background don't always have parents that are able to do this. One should be able to expect that if you send your child to school, the teacher will actually be teaching. There was very little discussion of grammar, etc.....how do kids learn if the teacher never gives feedback.

One of my kids had a teacher that was gone several times a month....nothing happened when the substitute was there. This same teacher sneaked out of the building one day before school was actually over..nothing happened.

Kids from higher poverty backgrounds are much more affected by poor teaching, if they don't have a parent at home that is able to correct for what they should be getting at school.

Sounds like it was the math program being used by the district and not the teaching itself? Many times teachers are stuck with a curriculum and told NOT to diviate from the script. There is a difference between teaching and just dishing out what you are told to do.

Which is my point. Some of the curriculum just doesn't work for everyone. Education should address the students' interests as well as basics like math, reading and writing.

From an article I found interesting--

But ignorance combined with arrogance is not fertile ground for growth.
And this is what has plagued the education debate on the purpose of education and what it means to teach and what it means to learn and how to measure if you’re going in the right direction and what happens if you are measuring all the wrong things and what happens if you forget that education is a system that involves a teacher and a family and a student and learning conditions that include how many students are in a teachers care and whether or not the child is hungry and if one teacher has computers and libraries and a theater class and parents who take their children to their alma mater’s campus on alumni day and another teacher is holding a crying child whose father was arrested last night for running a meth lab in the kitchen


Read more here

Last edited by zthatzmanz28; 12-31-2011 at 10:23 PM..
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Old 01-01-2012, 06:43 AM
 
634 posts, read 1,312,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Somehow when society has this IT AIN'T MY PROBLEM--because I am doing well and making money, they need to get off their a$$ and strive to be more white? just doesn't sound all that christian.
This is what I find SO interesting about our political parties and their platforms. As a Christian, I would like to remind our politicians that they will be judged by how they "treat the least among us", not the wealthiest. The problem is that the wealthiest is what gets them reelected.

All I can say is that some day when they meet their maker, they will get to answer for their choices...and I'd LOVE to be a fly on a wall then
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:05 AM
 
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To OP...if the curriculum is full of wholes though, why don't organizations like the NEA, or local teaching organizations speak out against them?

I have to say that my oldest child had a run of bad luck in the early elementary grades with teaching. It is really discouraging to have a teacher speak about invented spelling(meaning she will never provide any feedback on a child's written work), and practically glow about it.

It was so bad that I honestly thought about homeschooling for a while, and for all practical purposes this is what I ended up having to do when a few teachers flat out refused to do their jobs.

It was me that ended up having to do research and find out phonics was what was going to work to get my daughter to read...after I had asked many many many times about suggestions. I ended up teaching my daughter a math when the above mentioned teacher stated she wouldn't teach math, as one understands that in a normal sense of the word.



My point is though that if the output from the school is full of holes, how can children from higher poverty environments learn if there is no one at home to fill in the holes.

Can you imagine taking a kid to music lessons, and the teacher deciding she won't teach certain notes, like the C note....or the teacher telling the kid she should "discover" the proper finger placement for any instrument. Of course not. But this is exactly, in a metaphorical way, what many teachers do in practice, in part because they have hippie dippy ed professors(many of them with almost no classroom experience) that advocate such an approach...especially if they have been studying persons like Paolo Friere.
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:18 AM
 
5,642 posts, read 5,104,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleur66 View Post
Can you imagine taking a kid to music lessons, and the teacher deciding she won't teach certain notes, like the C note....or the teacher telling the kid she should "discover" the proper finger placement for any instrument. Of course not. But this is exactly, in a metaphorical way, what many teachers do in practice, in part because they have hippie dippy ed professors(many of them with almost no classroom experience) that advocate such an approach...especially if they have been studying persons like Paolo Friere.
It is VERY difficult to get a tenured professor job in teacher ed without classroom experience.

Are you talking about the cirriculum when they let the kids spell words however they want early on? My kids did that in their school. It actually worked fine. By 2nd grade or so most of the kids in my daughter's class were writing perfect English.
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:53 AM
 
654 posts, read 878,615 times
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Tina, my oldest kid had teachers that advocated this in the second and third grade. The teacher that glowed and gushed about it was a second grade teacher.

Kids don't learn to write perfect English unless they are getting information about what "perfect English" is from somewhere.

I took a class through the local College of Education some years ago....don't know if the instructor was a tenured professor or not, but he had no classroom experience beyond student teaching.

The Fordham report, Cracks in the Ivory Tower actually addresses the issue of how much practical experience ed professors actually have. According to that report 4 in 10 have never been classroom teachers, and many have not been in actual classroom for many years. This is on page 30 of the report if you happen to look it up.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:13 AM
 
5,642 posts, read 5,104,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleur66 View Post
Tina, my oldest kid had teachers that advocated this in the second and third grade. The teacher that glowed and gushed about it was a second grade teacher.

Kids don't learn to write perfect English unless they are getting information about what "perfect English" is from somewhere.

I took a class through the local College of Education some years ago....don't know if the instructor was a tenured professor or not, but he had no classroom experience beyond student teaching.

The Fordham report, Cracks in the Ivory Tower actually addresses the issue of how much practical experience ed professors actually have. According to that report 4 in 10 have never been classroom teachers, and many have not been in actual classroom for many years. This is on page 30 of the report if you happen to look it up.
Tenured track positions are hard to come by without class experience unless you teach social foundations classes (where Freire come up), but you can teach adjunct with no classroom experience. Being far removed from the classroom is a given since completing a PhD program takes 5 years on average and a lot of people are administration when they start one to begin with.

They do teach phonics and whatnot, they just don't do it right from the start with that method. My kids had it from kindergarten on. Nobody corrected their spelling at first. But they did learn spelling words in the classroom as time went on, and we were encouraged to read with and to the kids constantly (there were contests, incentives, rewards, etc). If I remember correctly by the end of the third grade everything is supposed to be worked out.

I do think that if the child doesn't get exposed to a lot of proper English outside the classroom, it probably throws everything off. That's probably why they go nuts tryng to get the parents to read with kids. But it did work out fine for mine and for most of the kids in my daughter's class, that is all I was trying to say.
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