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Old 01-01-2012, 10:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleur66 View Post

I have to say that my oldest child had a run of bad luck in the early elementary grades with teaching. It is really discouraging to have a teacher speak about invented spelling(meaning she will never provide any feedback on a child's written work), and practically glow about it.

It was so bad that I honestly thought about homeschooling for a while, and for all practical purposes this is what I ended up having to do when a few teachers flat out refused to do their jobs.
Invented spelling is the beginning stage of spelling. Kids do eventually learn to spell correctly *and* used properly, kids are encouraged to look up correct spellings on the word wall and in the dictionary after their writing is flowing.

Invented Spelling and Spelling Development | Reading Topics A-Z | Reading Rockets

Quote:
What are the stages of spelling development?

As preschool and early elementary school children discover the intricacies of printed English, they go through several stages of spelling development. Gentry (1982), building on Read's research, describes five stages: precommunicative, semiphonetic, phonetic, transitional, and correct.

Precommunicative stage

The child uses symbols from the alphabet but shows no knowledge of letter-sound correspondences. The child may also lack knowledge of the entire alphabet, the distinction between upper- and lower-case letters, and the left-to-right direction of English orthography.

Semiphonetic stage

The child begins to understand letter-sound correspondence ? that sounds are assigned to letters. At this stage, the child often employs rudimentary logic, using single letters, for example, to represent words, sounds, and syllables (e.g., U for you).

Phonetic stage

The child uses a letter or group of letters to represent every speech sound that they hear in a word. Although some of their choices do not conform to conventional English spelling, they are systematic and easily understood. Examples are KOM for come and EN for in.

Transitional stage

The speller begins to assimilate the conventional alternative for representing sounds, moving from a dependence on phonology (sound) for representing words to a reliance on visual representation and an understanding of the structure of words. Some examples are EGUL for eagle and HIGHEKED for hiked.

Correct stage

The speller knows the English orthographic system and its basic rules. The correct speller fundamentally understands how to deal with such things as prefixes and suffixes, silent consonants, alternative spellings, and irregular spellings. A large number of learned words are accumulated, and the speller recognizes incorrect forms. The child's generalizations about spelling and knowledge of exceptions are usually correct.
Unfortunately for me, my granddaughter is still in the transitional stage at 9 because she wants to write quickly and really does not want to stop and look up a word. She often *thinks* she knows how to spell things and spells them the way she hears them which isn't very accurate. Her daddy is still a bad speller too. I was always a good speller, but I read a lot of books. Neither my son nor my granddaughter enjoys reading that much.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:35 AM
 
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I know what invented spelling is, and my comments go beyond strictly spelling, but apply to grammar as well.

But here is my question again...if the educational system outright refuses to comprehensively teach what is needed to make someone a good reader, then how do they learn it if they have parents that for whatever reason don't have a good command of the English language.

I think using invented spelling beyond the point where it is developmentally appropriate, without offering feedback on correct usage is simply lazy and harms kids from higher poverty backgrounds more.

My oldest is now taking Spanish and I think while she is doing well is somewhat overwhelmed by all of the "rules" that she is learning...when in reality the school should have been teaching the rules of English in a much more comprehensive way...just in the same way they teach them in a foreign language.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinawina View Post
Tenured track positions are hard to come by without class experience unless you teach social foundations classes (where Freire come up), but you can teach adjunct with no classroom experience. Being far removed from the classroom is a given since completing a PhD program takes 5 years on average and a lot of people are administration when they start one to begin with.

I do think that if the child doesn't get exposed to a lot of proper English outside the classroom, it probably throws everything off. That's probably why they go nuts tryng to get the parents to read with kids. But it did work out fine for mine and for most of the kids in my daughter's class, that is all I was trying to say.
I will say that professors that seemed far removed from the craft they are supposed to be teaching aren't limited to colleges of education. I live in a university town and have come across a few in several disciplines.

I'm not a teacher, but I have done a fair amount of reading about education, especially when my daughter had experiences that deviated significantly from anything I expected. Even if you are talking about someone like Freire, it seems odd to have a discussion of what the implication of his theories might be in practice when no one in the room has had any significant experience in the classroom.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:56 AM
 
15,294 posts, read 16,849,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleur66 View Post
I know what invented spelling is, and my comments go beyond strictly spelling, but apply to grammar as well.

But here is my question again...if the educational system outright refuses to comprehensively teach what is needed to make someone a good reader, then how do they learn it if they have parents that for whatever reason don't have a good command of the English language.

I think using invented spelling beyond the point where it is developmentally appropriate, without offering feedback on correct usage is simply lazy and harms kids from higher poverty backgrounds more.

My oldest is now taking Spanish and I think while she is doing well is somewhat overwhelmed by all of the "rules" that she is learning...when in reality the school should have been teaching the rules of English in a much more comprehensive way...just in the same way they teach them in a foreign language.
At my granddaughter's school, they do teach both spelling and grammar and give her feedback on everything she writes (including taking points off for mispellings). This does not mean she applies this when she writes though. I wish I knew how to get her to apply what she is taught, but I have no idea because I was always naturally good at both grammar and spelling.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:22 AM
 
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Nana, from what I have read, and based on comparing my experiences with those of my children...1)There is much less formal teaching of the rules of English now than what there once was 2)Teachers don't give as much feedback on written work.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Invented spelling is the beginning stage of spelling. Kids do eventually learn to spell correctly *and* used properly, kids are encouraged to look up correct spellings on the word wall and in the dictionary after their writing is flowing.

Invented Spelling and Spelling Development | Reading Topics A-Z | Reading Rockets



Unfortunately for me, my granddaughter is still in the transitional stage at 9 because she wants to write quickly and really does not want to stop and look up a word. She often *thinks* she knows how to spell things and spells them the way she hears them which isn't very accurate. Her daddy is still a bad speller too. I was always a good speller, but I read a lot of books. Neither my son nor my granddaughter enjoys reading that much.

What I see happening with my students is that they seem to be stuck in the transitional stage. I don't see most of them learning standard spelling before they leave school, either dropping out or graduating. In our district, it's almost as if it takes two years of school to achieve one year of growth. Otherwise, why would our tenth-graders typically read at a fifth-grade level?

I don't think that they are five years behind. Rather I think that they start out behind, due to the reasons commonly associated with poverty, and they only progress half as quickly. Some of the smarter kids pick things up quickly, so that they are about on grade level by the end of high school. But most of the students fail the state English exam in the tenth grade, so that about half of the juniors are in remediation for English 2 while they are enrolled in English 3. Some of them will never pass the test after 10 or more attempts. They seem to be intelligent, but their language development was delayed from the start and never catches up before time runs out.

Our state does not have any early childhood education other than Head Start, and that doesn't use certified teachers. Our lawmakers don't seem to understand that money spent on the front end will save us money in the long run with a better-educated populace who can work higher-paying jobs that will allow young people to become taxpayers rather than welfare recipients or inmates. It's a case of being pennywise and pound-foolish.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:32 AM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleur66 View Post
To OP...if the curriculum is full of wholes though, why don't organizations like the NEA, or local teaching organizations speak out against them?





My point is though that if the output from the school is full of holes, how can children from higher poverty environments learn if there is no one at home to fill in the holes.
Most organizations have come out against programs and curricula that treats every student as a clone. Many teachers and critics would love to see standardized testing discontinued as an evaluation tool for student progress. When all we do is teach to the test, can learning really happen?
We no longer teach problem solving or creativity. In fact as teachers we are suppose to teach there is only one right answer and ONE way to get that answer because when students have to show their work on standardized tests, it has to align with the standard..

Just as there are exceptions to the poverty trap--students who make it despite the problems--society needs to develop environments where students want to learn and can do so without fear.

It is a societal problem that will require homework outside the school if it is to be corrected. Again, the alternative is....
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:46 AM
 
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Z....you really haven't answered the question about having a curriculum full of holes. Some of the questionable curriculums/edufads started long before the push for more standardized testing.

A person who wants to succeed creatively as a musician still needs to be able to read music. I know an older gentleman who was incredibly creative, was a specialist in concrete structures(creative ones at that) and a professor of engineering. He couldn't be a problem solver without a solid background in his given field.

Can you answer my question about where higher poverty students are supposed to get information that should be taught, but is not taught in the schools if there isn't a parent that has the willingness/ability to do so.

Here is an example...teacher decides to read a fiction book to her class in which the backstory is the Japanese internment camps in the US during World War 2. She provides almost no background information, and in my opinion such a subject deserves some. Kid comes home totally confused. Which kid comes away with a better learning experience, when the teacher provides no background info...the kid with the less educated parents, or the kid who had a mom that is a history professor? While we can't minimize all the gaps, I think we aren't at all trying to level the playing field in any way.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:54 AM
 
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As far as teaching ONE right way as you suggest is being pushed at students...when my daughter started learning math they weren't competently teaching ANY way of solving problems.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:55 AM
 
5,646 posts, read 5,111,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleur66 View Post

I'm not a teacher, but I have done a fair amount of reading about education, especially when my daughter had experiences that deviated significantly from anything I expected. Even if you are talking about someone like Freire, it seems odd to have a discussion of what the implication of his theories might be in practice when no one in the room has had any significant experience in the classroom.
I think it's because social foundations courses are basically applied sociology, so more of the people who are interested in that type of thing may come from other disciplines. That said there are plenty of people who teach that that do have classroom experiences. But they are basically theory classes, not technical.

There is a lot about actual teaching you can't learn in a college classroom anyway. I think most of the learning comes from doing. All you can really do is prepare teachers to know their subject area and understand some basic theory about how kids learn (and some approaches for teaching that subject), know the ins and outs of putting together lessons, then perhaps get them in a mindset about the big picture. You can cover some tips for classroom management and such but it's not like you can really "know". After that people have to figure out how they can make it work for them. Lots of trial and error and mentoring is what has to happen I think.

Last edited by Tinawina; 01-01-2012 at 12:32 PM..
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