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My wife and I have been discussing middle childhood this week. Apparently, that is the period from 7-13 or so, where kids have a full sized brain, but without the adolescent urges and drama. They even call it,"the age of reason." That certainly seemed to be the case for me.
Vis a vis education, I was a very good student from 2nd-7th grade, then horrible from 8-11th, improving in 12th grade. I recall a light bulb going on at about 17, saying, "that was dumb, why did you not try harder in HS, you idiot!" I "got it" and was very motivated and quite successful in college, and now feel very similar to that 3rd grade kid who loved volcanoes, dinosaurs, math, stories, and learning all sorts of stuff. The teen years are a bit foggy and anomalous, and embarrassing. I have often wondered why. I am assuming that I did not handle the teen hormones well, but once that passed, I was fine. An uncharitable person could argue, I am just an idiot (and I would only partly disagree), everyone knows that a high school kids should be taking AP courses and writing great essays for application to top colleges, but I wonder if others have had a similar experience of confusion and lack of focus in the teen years, that was incongruent with earlier and later life.
Our current pre-college educational system puts a lot of weight on teenage achievement (high school GPAs,etc.), and I wonder if other bright kids struggle in that period. And if so, what are the implications for public and private education in the middle and teen years?
Sorry this is so open-ended, but I think it is quite important, with many potential implications. I don't mean to direct the conversation, let's see where it goes.
I lost focus big time in high school. I think I had a hard time with the social aspect and suspect that might be the reasoning with a lot of teens. You start noticing boys or girls. Social norms are being established and finding yourself among the mix. step outside that norm and it can be brutal. Its when you start to really look at the world around you (with limited knowledge but you think you know more) and it also the time period where you may realize your parents aren't as smart as you thought. My son is now a teen and he focus wavers. I try to get him to look at the big picture but when you are young, timelines don't seem so important. I never liked school until my senior year. Something clicked by then. My path was chosen by how my parents lived. They were blue collar and from their era you could get a pretty good job with just a HS diploma. They were more worried about me moving out and getting a job. I wanted to buy stuff so I went that route. I went back to college later and sometimes I find myself feeling frustrated that my son doesn't take things as seriously as I think he should. He will find his way. I know he will but as a parent you don't want your kids making mistakes. I do see the pressures of the whole AP thing. My son's district is very college focused which is what I wanted however there are kids that simply don't have an interest in going on. Sometimes I think the district puts too much emphasis on the whole AP thing. They act like if your child isn't in AP classes then their future is doomed.
Your story sounds a lot like mine. Frankly I cannot blame anyone else, I think it was a maturity, confidence thing. I really just did not get in the super competitive college-prep mode in high school. I think for boys especially, maturity may kick in a bit later for some quite bright people.
I am quite interested in hearing if there is more variation in achievement at that age.
Last night, pondering this topic, I read two scientific papers that spoke to ( I think) my question. One paper, discussing gifted achievers and nonachievers, discussed the important of goal formation for achievement in adolescents with obvious academic potential. A lot of teen age kids are rebelling at one level, and trying to form an identity as well, so bright or not, they sometimes cannot dial things in in high school. There are many reasons why kids struggle, but the net effect boil down to clear goals or unclear goals. I was placed in a gifted child program in grade school, but struggled to even be average in high school.
The second paper discussed adolescent cultures, and in most schools, athletic achievement is valued much more than academic achievement. So, for insecure kids, who really want to be "normal" seeming like a nerd is not at all what they want, even if academic achievement is their natural gift.
For many of the kids who qualify for top-notch universities, it seems like that could point to very good school environment (with high peer aspirations), high emotional maturity and self-confidence (ability to take a nonpopular stances), or precocity (these people are all meatheads and I am going to do well to get out of here!). Parental influence, sadly, appears to fall below these factors. Regardless, the super motivated adolescent, although admirable, appears to be in the minority.
Very cool! I feel I finally understand my personal trajectory. It was not about talent so much as emotional self-identity, which must precede goal formation, discipline, and consequent achievement.
I would submit that most kids cannot achieve in college to please their parents or anyone else, they must be working to please themselves, with requires self knowledge and identity.
Last night, pondering this topic, I read two scientific papers that spoke to ( I think) my question. One paper, discussing gifted achievers and nonachievers, discussed the important of goal formation for achievement in adolescents with obvious academic potential. A lot of teen age kids are rebelling at one level, and trying to form an identity as well, so bright or not, they sometimes cannot dial things in in high school. There are many reasons why kids struggle, but the net effect boil down to clear goals or unclear goals. I was placed in a gifted child program in grade school, but struggled to even be average in high school.
Thank you for this thread... Do you have a link to the papers you read as they sound informative? I am beginning to struggle with these issues with my 7th grade son. He was also in the gifted program (since 3rd grade) and is very intelligent and creative. He also seems to be a leader among his peers. But I know he is not working to his academic/creative potential. He does get good grades (all A's and one B in honors courses) by doing the minimum (rarely has any homework as he completes everything in class). But he does not seem to have the fire he once had to learn new academic areas (e.g. like when he was obsessed with astronomy in 5th grade).
He is all around a very nice kid with lots of friends. He is also very athletic and I worry that is what has been distracting him from his other academic/artistic interests, though I think he is gaining a great deal of leadership skills through sports. He is the typical quarterback of the football team, starting guard of the basketball team, etc and has won several athletic awards. He is also a handsome boy and receives a lot of attention (and many texts) from girls... I know, there are worse problems to have!
Some of the kids he used to be friends with (e.g. from gifted classes), he no longer hangs out with as he has told me they are "nerds" who "read the dictionary on Friday night because they have no life." I know, a mean and disappointing comment. He also has proclaimed that he only sits at the "jock" lunch table and that he is the class clown. He also tells me one of his main school goals is to get a college basketball scholarship. I know, it all sound like a bad cliche! I am getting very worried about all of this (it started this school year). I do feel he is going through a big social transition and identity formation as you describe.
I am also worried that he has dropped out of some activities he is really good at (e.g. orchestra) though he is trying new activities (e.g. drums). I am trying to give him room to develop his identity and personal direction, but I worry he will lose his passion/skills for some of the things he is really good at during this process. I also worry he may be de-emphasizing his academic knowledge/achievements in order to fit in with his social group. I know this is fairly common with adolescent boys. But it is new territory for me as he is my only son and much different from his older, goal-setting, highly successful sister. I have tried to get some direction about all of this from his teachers (all women) to no avail. I feel that talking to some successful men (maybe like some of you posters) who have gone through these adolescent stages may give me better direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead
The second paper discussed adolescent cultures, and in most schools, athletic achievement is valued much more than academic achievement. So, for insecure kids, who really want to be "normal" seeming like a nerd is not at all what they want, even if academic achievement is their natural gift.
This does sound like my son though he does not seem insecure at all.
For the curious, the citations for those articles are:
McCoach, D.B. and D. Siegel. 2003. Factors that differentiate underachieving gifted students from high achieving gifted students. Gifted Child Quarterly. 47(2):144-154.
Coleman, J. S. 1960 The adolescent subculture and academic achievement. The American Journal of Sociology. 4:337-347.
The latter is pretty dated, but I had fun thinking about teenagers in the 1950s. Yes, everyone wanted to be the Fonz, not Richie Cunningham!
Thank you for this thread... Do you have a link to the papers you read as they sound informative? I am beginning to struggle with these issues with my 7th grade son. He was also in the gifted program (since 3rd grade) and is very intelligent and creative. He also seems to be a leader among his peers. But I know he is not working to his academic/creative potential. He does get good grades (all A's and one B in honors courses) by doing the minimum (rarely has any homework as he completes everything in class). But he does not seem to have the fire he once had to learn new academic areas (e.g. like when he was obsessed with astronomy in 5th grade).
He is all around a very nice kid with lots of friends. He is also very athletic and I worry that is what has been distracting him from his other academic/artistic interests, though I think he is gaining a great deal of leadership skills through sports. He is the typical quarterback of the football team, starting guard of the basketball team, etc and has won several athletic awards. He is also a handsome boy and receives a lot of attention (and many texts) from girls... I know, there are worse problems to have!
Some of the kids he used to be friends with (e.g. from gifted classes), he no longer hangs out with as he has told me they are "nerds" who "read the dictionary on Friday night because they have no life." I know, a mean and disappointing comment. He also has proclaimed that he only sits at the "jock" lunch table and that he is the class clown. He also tells me one of his main school goals is to get a college basketball scholarship. I know, it all sound like a bad cliche! I am getting very worried about all of this (it started this school year). I do feel he is going through a big social transition and identity formation as you describe.
I am also worried that he has dropped out of some activities he is really good at (e.g. orchestra) though he is trying new activities (e.g. drums). I am trying to give him room to develop his identity and personal direction, but I worry he will lose his passion/skills for some of the things he is really good at during this process. I also worry he may be de-emphasizing his academic knowledge/achievements in order to fit in with his social group. I know this is fairly common with adolescent boys. But it is new territory for me as he is my only son and much different from his older, goal-setting, highly successful sister. I have tried to get some direction about all of this from his teachers (all women) to no avail. I feel that talking to some successful men (maybe like some of you posters) who have gone through these adolescent stages may give me better direction.
This does sound like my son though he does not seem insecure at all.
Haha! This sounds like typical adolescence. It sounds like he is realizing the "football hero" persona is much cooler than the bookworm persona. He can do both, but which gets the admiration? I wouldn't worry too much. I was captain of my crew team in college, and the grades took a slight hit, but it was well worth it overall for the self-confidence and discipline and recognition that provided.
Your boy sounds like a hoot, and he seems very good at many things. Since he is obviously bright you might want to mention to him to try to keep his head through the teen years (NO drinking and driving, tattoos, sexting, etc.). He probably won't avoid doing some dumb things, but then again, he might actually consider it when his friends when they all decide to go the next town over and have their tongues tattooed.
Haha! This sounds like typical adolescence. It sounds like he is realizing the "football hero" persona is much cooler than the bookworm persona. He can do both, but which gets the admiration? I wouldn't worry too much. I was captain of my crew team in college, and the grades took a slight hit, but it was well worth it overall for the self-confidence and discipline and recognition that provided.
Your boy sounds like a hoot, and he seems very good at many things. Since he is obviously bright you might want to mention to him to try to keep his head through the teen years (NO drinking and driving, tattoos, sexting, etc.). He probably won't avoid doing some dumb things, but then again, he might actually consider it when his friends when they all decide to go the next town over and have their tongues tattooed.
He is a hoot.... But now you have me worried about tongue tattoos LOL. He is a big risk-taker, which is what worries me! Yesterday, we were driving home when, out of the blue, he asked me to stop at a pizza restaurant so he could speak to someone about an idea he had. My son (who is 12) asked the manager (who he had not met before) if the restaurant would become one of his sports sponsors. You see, in addition to his other sports, my son has begun competing in local ski events with his ultimate goal being to compete in Colorado and Europe. I have told him that skiing is a very expensive sport and he will need to contribute financially for equipment, travel, etc. So, on his own, he hatched this plan of finding sponsorship and is putting together a YouTube video to market himself. Next week, he will be meeting with the regional mgr of this natl. pizza chain to discuss his sponsorship! We will see where this goes, it should be a good learning experience for him.
He really is a great kid, but I worry that he should be at home more reading and studying for assessment tests and future AP courses and hanging around more with bookworms, whereas he has other ideas...
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