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Old 02-06-2012, 07:22 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,538,170 times
Reputation: 3026

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
This is, EXACTLY, the problem attitude.

So, please, tell me what chemistry concepts you think I should teach if it's not the ones I can teach critical thinking skills with???

*I* reflects the fact that *I* am standing in front of that room and there are some topics I can take kids to new heights on and others I can't. If you want your child to have a decent science education, *I* need to be able to teach the concepts that *I* am capable of taking them to new heights on whether they are deemed power standards or not. AND *I* spent 20 years in engineering. You may find this really hard to believe but I actually have a clue as to which standards are the important ones.

You just made my point. The goal is to get students ready for college and the state exams. Do you really think I lack the ability to figure out how to get there? I know from EXPERIENCE what it takes to succeed in college chemistry classes. I know that 52% of the state science test is thinking scientifically and only 12% are the standards. People like you are why education is such a mess these days.
I can see why you are having a problem. You are hitting your head to much. Take it easy. It is rattling your bring and not letting see more clearly. I already wrote in the previous message regarding micromanaging, which I think you red to much into what I wrote. Please see the message above.
The goal is to get students prepared for what they want in with the guidance of their parents. Some kids are not college material, that is a reality. Some can be great plumbers and make a decent living in such trade or other occupations. The parents as a group in the community can set criteria that covers those kids that want to go to college and for those that want to go into other trades. The educators can brief them and show them what type of subjects, classes, methods they think are best and then go from there. However, to me it is important to respect the parents right to decide what they think is best for their kids.

Lastly, it does amaze me that someone with such education resorts to personal comments. It is unprofessional the way you close your message because you do not like what I write.
I love education and we pushed our kids to get there. Why? My dad with first grade education and my mom with second grade education in Mexico instilled in us the thirst and desire to improve ourselves and do better than they did. Not to go into details I will say I settled in Texas when we moved from Mexico and I joined the Army in '78 mainly to get education benefits. At that time I you could not even call me a high school dropout because I did not even attend a high school to drop out from. I now have my masters and all our daughters have bachelors and masters.
Also, I do get involved in education by volunteering at a local elementary school to tutor kids in math so to say "People like you are why education is such a mess these days." is simply a comment made out of some degree of ignorance and it is difficult for me to accept that I originates from someone with the education you have. So when people with the higher type of degree like yours make such unprofessional comments, it does not fit the perception I have of someone of the caliber of education you have. I encourage you to be more professional. Why not just stay on the topic we can either agree or disagree? My suggestion. Take care.

 
Old 02-06-2012, 07:30 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,538,170 times
Reputation: 3026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
LOL, I figured you couldn't answer the question.

The sarcasm was warranted. Seriously, you need to leave this up to the experts. Why do you assume parents know more than teachers because SOME of them are educated when teachers are ALL educated (at least public school teachers are)

And listing the top three skills you think kids should learn in chemistry isn't micromanaging. That would be the 143 CCE's the state gives me.
Experts? I am sure you have more experience in teaching than many out there. However, to me you give yourself to much credit as if the rest of the people in the community do not know their right hand from their left hand.

Also, I must point out that we live a society where the general ideology is based on democratic principles. The state mandating on the people and parents what they are supposed to do with their kids is not something that I agree with.
If you think sarcasm is warranted, I respect that. Just that as I already wrote to me it is something I would think would be less professional. I am giving my views and respect your regardless how much I may disagree. We differ there I suppose. Take care.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,443,246 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I can see why you are having a problem. You are hitting your head to much. Take it easy. It is rattling your bring and not letting see more clearly. I already wrote in the previous message regarding micromanaging, which I think you red to much into what I wrote. Please see the message above.
The goal is to get students prepared for what they want in with the guidance of their parents. Some kids are not college material, that is a reality. Some can be great plumbers and make a decent living in such trade or other occupations. The parents as a group in the community can set criteria that covers those kids that want to go to college and for those that want to go into other trades. The educators can brief them and show them what type of subjects, classes, methods they think are best and then go from there. However, to me it is important to respect the parents right to decide what they think is best for their kids.

Lastly, it does amaze me that someone with such education resorts to personal comments. It is unprofessional the way you close your message because you do not like what I write.
I love education and we pushed our kids to get there. Why? My dad with first grade education and my mom with second grade education in Mexico instilled in us the thirst and desire to improve ourselves and do better than they did. Not to go into details I will say I settled in Texas when we moved from Mexico and I joined the Army in '78 mainly to get education benefits. At that time I you could not even call me a high school dropout because I did not even attend a high school to drop out from. I now have my masters and all our daughters have bachelors and masters.
Also, I do get involved in education by volunteering at a local elementary school to tutor kids in math so to say "People like you are why education is such a mess these days." is simply a comment made out of some degree of ignorance and it is difficult for me to accept that I originates from someone with the education you have. So when people with the higher type of degree like yours make such unprofessional comments, it does not fit the perception I have of someone of the caliber of education you have. I encourage you to be more professional. Why not just stay on the topic we can either agree or disagree? My suggestion. Take care.
Seriously??? It is hardly unprofessional to state that people who think they know more than the experts are creating a problem in education. It's a huge problem for education when people who do not know our content area or even the focus of the state mandated tests decide what we will teach.

I stand by what I said. People like you are why education is such a mess these days. When laymen start telling experts what to do, you get a mess.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,443,246 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Experts? I am sure you have more experience in teaching than many out there. However, to me you give yourself to much credit as if the rest of the people in the community do not know their right hand from their left hand.

Also, I must point out that we live a society where the general ideology is based on democratic principles. The state mandating on the people and parents what they are supposed to do with their kids is not something that I agree with.
If you think sarcasm is warranted, I respect that. Just that as I already wrote to me it is something I would think would be less professional. I am giving my views and respect your regardless how much I may disagree. We differ there I suppose. Take care.
NEWS FLASH....I was hired to teach chemistry and physics because of my subject matter experties and 20 years of experience using that expertise. Believe it or not, I may actually know at thing or two about my subject areas.... Why do you assume I don't?

Do you even know what portion of the tests in your state is devoted to content knowlege, critical thinking and data interpretation? I've already stated my issue with the adoption of power standards and the expectation that I lob off anything that isn't one. 52% of the state tests have to do with critical thinking skills, data manipulation and interpretation. Only 12% has to do with the actual content taught to get there and that is just as likely to come from the portions they are lobbing off as the ones they are keeping. *I* however, because of my background, am capable of leading my students into deeper thinking in certain areas but not in others. Yes, I think I should have the right to say, that *I* can teach my students best if I keep material that is not power standards even if it means I don't get to something that is a power standard. Teaching my students to reason will get them more points on the tests AND serve them well in college. The emphasis of the test and my background in engineering tell me that. It also tells me which standards really are power standards. When I look at some of the power standards published, I just shake my head because what they look like is chem for all, meaning, what we think we can teach to get everyone through chemistry rather than what is really important.

Fortunately, my district has chosen to vertically align and once that is in place, I won't have to throw any of them out. All 143 will get taught. Some will just be taught in 9th grade science to make room in my class for the others.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-06-2012 at 07:59 PM..
 
Old 02-06-2012, 07:49 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,429,791 times
Reputation: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
You really have no idea how to even begin to answer my post. Actually computers/internet are still government projects, our tax dollars through the aegis of the Navy is paying for the new materials that are being used in the next generation of computers for example.

Of course they are, and I fully support them. I will gladly pay Federal taxes for them.

And while you may love computers/internet, your ardor seems to have created a lot of confusion for you. Or is it that your just being obtuse. Again you wouldn't be in the position to post anything if generations of past taxpayers hadn't actually paid taxes for its creation. Which is a point you have no way to rebut.

Well, a significant portion of the basis of electronic items we use today were privately invented. Transistor, laser and thousands of others? Bell Labs averaged one patent per day for many years.

Quote:"Again you wouldn't be in the position to post anything if generations of past taxpayers hadn't actually paid taxes for its creation."

Perhaps not, but that is water over the dam.

The rest of your post is a mishmash of the same warmed over "libertarian" boilerplate which has been making the rounds for decades. None of what you posted could have created without the taxpayer, and much of it couldn't have been maintained without the taxpayer continuing to pay for research which is then licensed out to corporations so as to overcharge us for what we created.

You DO realize this is an education thread, not what government agencies have invented, correct?

By the way, if you had any idea of the amount of public money that goes to universities for research, then you'd realize your zilch, zip, nada, yada yada claim is actually very silly.

Considering that virtually all my relatives and siblings, nieces, nephews are all in research, I do have a very good idea. Only three of them utilize NIH grants, and the remainder are all private industry. If there is a buck to be made on a product, private industry (or institutes of higher learning) invents it, patents it, and sells it.

Again it's real simple, guys like you want something for nothing.

I don't know where this keeps coming from. I don't want anything that I have to subsidize, that is of no value to me. Everything you have listed has value to me, so I will gladly pay taxes for them.

But the major point is this. The previous generations of Americans paid in far more than they took out, creating the real wealth that you're exploiting. Otherwise there would be no infrastructure, no public wealth. It's laughable to read someone post that corporations created what guys like you take for granted, those same entities whose time lines have been reduced to mere months, and having been gutting much of their own infrastructure to move overseas.

I will pay easily 1000 times what I took out. I am not exactly sure what I am 'exploiting'. My entire estate goes to non-profit organizations that will help others. Every last penny. Will yours?
Me thinks you need a lesson in capitalism. Better to move some jobs overseas, than refuse to do so and having whatever is being produced cost too much, and then the whole company goes out of business. See you in the bread line.

Laughable but predictable...

Let's just keep printing money and spending it like drunken sailors... At least I have a viable bail-out plan for myself.

Mine in red.
 
Old 02-07-2012, 05:34 PM
 
8,231 posts, read 17,279,125 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
It's not being taken by force. It's taken by agreement. The majority rules. If the majority has voted in a millage, and you live in the area, you pay that millage.

I don't like taxes but I recognize that society has dictated we pay them so I pay them. I'm part of society. I get my say when I vote but I have to do what the majority decides whether it was what I wanted or not.

I suppose we could just require every parent to pay for school, and let the prisoners out of prison because no one wants to pay for them, and make every road a toll road, and charge admission for the neighborhood park, and rent books at the library and just let the poor die of whatever ails them instead of supporting hospitals that take the indigent, and buy guns so we can fire the police, and watch our house burn to the ground because there are no firemen.... Never mind.....I think I'll pay my taxes instead.

Yes, individuals lose the right to refuse to pay taxes when they live in a society that has agreed to pay taxes. Society isn't about individuals they're about collections of individuals. If you don't want to support the society you live in, I'd suggest you leave it for one you want to support. The money you're complaining about being taken isn't yours. It belongs to society. You agree to pay it by living in society. You're free to leave any time.

And you are responsible for educating your children as you see fit just as long as it meets the minimum society offers. You have every right to do more for your kids.
Ha, ha, just try NOT paying taxes and see if they're not taken by force. Just tell the IRS that you 'disagree'. Ha ha.

First, let's not reach automatically for the straw man. Most of us understand the need to pay for prisons, and for indigent families, or those who want a basic, no frills education. My argument, and let's try to stay on topic, is on EDUCATION. I'm perfectly happy to pay for a basic standard of education, especially for indigent care. I think it would be infinitely more cost effective, lead to better education and be more responsive to local needs for us to move to a voucher educational system.
 
Old 02-07-2012, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,443,246 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
Ha, ha, just try NOT paying taxes and see if they're not taken by force. Just tell the IRS that you 'disagree'. Ha ha.

First, let's not reach automatically for the straw man. Most of us understand the need to pay for prisons, and for indigent families, or those who want a basic, no frills education. My argument, and let's try to stay on topic, is on EDUCATION. I'm perfectly happy to pay for a basic standard of education, especially for indigent care. I think it would be infinitely more cost effective, lead to better education and be more responsive to local needs for us to move to a voucher educational system.
Sorry, society agrees to pay taxes. If you wish to be part of society you are required to pay taxes. You are free to leave society any time you wish and not pay taxes.

I'll meet you half way with open enrollment. My problem with vouchers is I believe in separation of church and state and vouchers would end up used to fund private religious schools. If parents want their children to have a religious education, the bill is all theirs. However, I don't think open enrollment or vouchers would improve education. Some kids would get better educations because of the system and some would get worse. How does that improve anything?
 
Old 02-07-2012, 08:47 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,777,777 times
Reputation: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
Mine in red.
Mine in black. See the problem with your logic, such as it is, is that despite what you may think is "private' research, none of your corporations runs universities. All corporate scientists, engineers, administrators came from universities, both public and private. Now this is where your thinking crashes and burns. Those universities all depend on public research grants in order to maintain their science departments. I know, I worked on grants. And unlike private R&D, the role of public research grants is not only just to get science, it's also paid to educate the next generation of scientists, engineers and technicians. Those very same ones who end up in private corporations. Maybe a guy like you thinks that its corps that do that role, but unfortunately for yass, that's nonsense. With the continued cutting of corporations tax burdens, they've shifted most of tax burden on the middle class, which is getting less and less for its tax dollars, while corporations are getting the benefit of those publicly funded functionaries which end up working for them. Your argument would have some legitimacy if in fact there existed University of Microsoft. Or Raytheon U. Or Boeing State University. And if they entirely paid from k through graduate school, along with all the science grants now being paid by the public, for the education of the people they hire. Alas, for guys like you, such things don't exist. And neither does any support for anything you're posting.

It would seem that was so apparent that I wouldn't need to say it, but it your case, I can't make that assumption. And further, many of those corporate functionaries attended public schools, including k-12. So again, your claim that you have zilch, zip, nada, yada yada for schools, is really just plain dumb.

It's simple, what guys like you want is something for nothing. You don't want funding for something you claim you don't use, you want the end product but have some one else pay for it. And it's generations of former taxpayers who funded the very same technology, or paid for the education of those that created that technology, which was then licensed to corps in order for you to claim that the government is rippin you off.

Again mine in black.....

Last edited by loloroj; 02-07-2012 at 09:10 PM..
 
Old 02-08-2012, 02:34 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,443,246 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Experts? I am sure you have more experience in teaching than many out there. However, to me you give yourself to much credit as if the rest of the people in the community do not know their right hand from their left hand.

Also, I must point out that we live a society where the general ideology is based on democratic principles. The state mandating on the people and parents what they are supposed to do with their kids is not something that I agree with.
If you think sarcasm is warranted, I respect that. Just that as I already wrote to me it is something I would think would be less professional. I am giving my views and respect your regardless how much I may disagree. We differ there I suppose. Take care.
I am talking collectively here. However, given that I have 20 years experience in industry in addition to teaching experience, I don't think I'm giving myself too much credit to say that I have a clue as to what should be taught in my classroom. Because I have both industrial experience and teaching experience, I'm, probably, in better position than most on either side of the fence to make the decision as to what should be taught. Yet, I'm being dictated to by people who have done neither. The teachers are the ones left out of these decisions but it is the teachers who have the experience and expertise to make the decisions. I can't think of another profession where we leave the people who understand the process best out of the decision making process. That, certainly, did not take place when I was in engineering. We were the first people asked!


I think you give yourself too much credit for thinking you should get to decide what I teach. What makes you an expert here? I have the degrees and the experience.

As to your kids, you have every right to teach them whatever you want. What you can't expect is for a public system to cater to YOUR kids. You are free to join any private system out there that will but the bill is yours.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-08-2012 at 03:03 AM..
 
Old 02-08-2012, 06:07 AM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,429,791 times
Reputation: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I can see why you are having a problem. You are hitting your head to much. Take it easy. It is rattling your bring and not letting see more clearly. I already wrote in the previous message regarding micromanaging, which I think you red to much into what I wrote. Please see the message above.
The goal is to get students prepared for what they want in with the guidance of their parents. Some kids are not college material, that is a reality. Some can be great plumbers and make a decent living in such trade or other occupations. The parents as a group in the community can set criteria that covers those kids that want to go to college and for those that want to go into other trades. The educators can brief them and show them what type of subjects, classes, methods they think are best and then go from there. However, to me it is important to respect the parents right to decide what they think is best for their kids.

Lastly, it does amaze me that someone with such education resorts to personal comments. It is unprofessional the way you close your message because you do not like what I write.
I love education and we pushed our kids to get there. Why? My dad with first grade education and my mom with second grade education in Mexico instilled in us the thirst and desire to improve ourselves and do better than they did. Not to go into details I will say I settled in Texas when we moved from Mexico and I joined the Army in '78 mainly to get education benefits. At that time I you could not even call me a high school dropout because I did not even attend a high school to drop out from. I now have my masters and all our daughters have bachelors and masters.
Also, I do get involved in education by volunteering at a local elementary school to tutor kids in math so to say "People like you are why education is such a mess these days." is simply a comment made out of some degree of ignorance and it is difficult for me to accept that I originates from someone with the education you have. So when people with the higher type of degree like yours make such unprofessional comments, it does not fit the perception I have of someone of the caliber of education you have. I encourage you to be more professional. Why not just stay on the topic we can either agree or disagree? My suggestion. Take care.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent response. Professionals 'defending' their career choices and methods should make professional comments. I personally believe that lashing out like that is a desperate attempt for justification, and assigning blame.
I have been 'ignored' by the OP for trying to make suggestions on how to improve things, but it is now readily apparent that the extreme myopic views of the OP, and narrow-mindedness, makes me realize that I am just wasting my time, so a reciprocal 'ignore' is in order.
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