Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 02-12-2012, 12:33 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,430,235 times
Reputation: 1604

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
Sorry Sparky, but you're just makin things up. Completely and totally. Again its VERY hard to even begin to attempt to create a reply to this stuff. But lets just begin with one claim that you made, that USA education stinks.

Both Duke and MIT have stated that the bulk of their engineers DONT go into that field, including their grad engineering students end up doin something else. Why? Because there are few engineering jobs available and pay aint good. Which is exactly what the BLS and Paul Craig Roberts have said time and again, that the lack of engineering jobs being created by this economy is driving down wages in the field. Now in keeping with your tentative grasp on reality, you may think that Duke and MIT are lousy schools, but let me assure you, that they're not.

You're spinnin yarns Sparky, and really, I would be glad to see whatever proof you may have regarding what you pay and who you hire. Because all you have is anecdotes which in no way square up with the realty, that being, there exists a glut of engineers and scientists worldwide, American corps have gone out and weakened the immigration regs in order to drive down wages even further. And moreover, if you're bringin in foreign workers to this country, they're new, which means that you're payin starting engineers in your company, who have neither lived here nor worked here, the kind of pay you claimed. But we both know what you claimed aint true.

Face it, you came to this gunfight with a butter knife. You're living in a world of make believe. And you owe legions of former taxpayers plenty, but again, in keeping with the kind of guy you are, you want something for nothing. Sorry Sahib, whether you like it or not, whether you want to think as does a petulant child, reality says quite different.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"Sorry Sparky, but you're just makin things up. Completely and totally."

If you had any knowledge of the marketplace, and any proof of my 'making things ups', your credibility would be higher than it is now (currently hovering around zero). Demonstrable proof, please. I live it every day. (And I do if for free, as a consultant).

Quote:"Again its VERY hard to even begin to attempt to create a reply to this stuff."

That is because it requires cerebral capacity.

Quote:"Both Duke and MIT have stated that the bulk of their engineers DONT go into that field, including their grad engineering students end up doin something else. Why? Because there are few engineering jobs available and pay aint good."

As a graduate with a Brass Rat, (the latter school you mentioned), I know first-hand that what you state is utter fallacy.

Quote:"Because there are few engineering jobs available and pay aint good. "

We start software engineers at about $80K. Not bad for fresh out of school. As they get more experienced, the pay goes up significantly.


Quote:"you may think that Duke and MIT are lousy schools, but let me assure you, that they're not. "

Geez, the latter is one of my alma maters. Awesome school! I never said they were lousy.

For a course-redirection back to the origin of this thread, titled "NEWS -- Privitization coming sooner than later?' This thread is about public schools. Please work on reading comprehension. The schools you mentioned are all private, and those schools are wonderful. It is the public schools that (generally) stink. That is why my parents pulled me out of them (and this was a so-called one of the best in the state).

Quote:"You're spinnin yarns Sparky, and really, I would be glad to see whatever proof you may have regarding what you pay and who you hire. Because all you have is anecdotes which in no way square up with the realty, that being, there exists a glut of engineers and scientists worldwide, American corps have gone out and weakened the immigration regs in order to drive down wages even further."

You are welcome to see my lab budgets any time you like. I can't get a contractor for less than $65/hr. (Back in the crazy telecom days of the early 2000's, I couldn't get one for less thatn $100/hr).

Quote:"Because all you have is anecdotes which in no way square up with the realty, that being, there exists a glut of engineers and scientists worldwide, American corps have gone out and weakened the immigration regs in order to drive down wages even further."

We pay the immigrants exactly the same as the natives.... For many of those here on green cards, they went to places like MIT, Cal Tech, Stanford, etc.... It doesn't matter where they came from. If they are the best and brightest, they get the first shot at a job, for the same pay as anyone else. Really simple.

Quote:"And moreover, if you're bringin in foreign workers to this country, they're new, which means that you're payin starting engineers in your company, who have neither lived here nor worked here, the kind of pay you claimed."

Most of my foreign engineers have lived here for a few years (as they go to the top schools here), are not 'new' in any sense of the word, and if you have ever been to India to see places like Infosys, Wipro, Hughes, HP etc, they are easily the same caliber (or better) than those here.

Quote:"But we both know what you claimed aint true."

Well, I know its true because I live it. You believe it is not true, since you are just guessing about things that appear to be out of your knowledge scope.

Quote:"Face it, you came to this gunfight with a butter knife. You're living in a world of make believe."

I guess then I am in a place where many of my peers and co-workers are also in make-believe land. And all the cars in the parking lot aren't really there (lamborghinis, 3 Ferraris, countless MB AMG's, etc). Nope. You are right. We are just making this up and living in fantasy land.

Quote:"And you owe legions of former taxpayers plenty, but again, in keeping with the kind of guy you are, you want something for nothing."

I don't want (nor need) anything from anybody, and I like it that way. I owe you nothing, you owe me nothing.

Quote"...whether you like it or not, whether you want to think as does a petulant child, reality says quite different...."

Reality is what you make it. I have made mine. 1). I am not going to pay for your kids to go to school. That one has been solved. 2). I will pay for the services I utilize (and I do). 3). I have properly set up my life so I don't need to rely on others for much of anything. 4). I am happy not dealing with those (hint) who are a burden on society, or have no factual data to back up their statements.

 
Old 02-12-2012, 12:36 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,430,235 times
Reputation: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
I'm interested in knowing how you expect a poor state like Mississippi to manage without the federally managed levee system that helped avoid a total disaster last year when the river flooded. There was still widespread damage in large parts of the Mississippi River basin, but due to the opening of the Morganza Spillway, a greater catastrophe, like the one in 1927, was avoided. The river is vital for interstate commerce, but no one state has means to manage it.

Another function that would be difficult for the private sector to provide is the management of natural disasters of the scale such as Hurricane Katrina, which the federal government completely botched. Do you think that private institutions and local governments could have done a better job? Even BP, with their deep pocket, hasn't done a bang-up job repairing the damage that they caused, and that wasn't even a natural disaster.

Would you sell off the assets of the federal government to the highest bidder? What if there were no takers? In theory what you are proposing sounds good, but the Founding Fathers knew that things would change, so they made the system amendable. Remember that every law and every government function that came about after the creation of the nation went through the constitutional process, which means that they were agreed upon by a majority of the representatives in order to become the law of the land.

Finally, I've been racking my brains to think of any nation outside the third world that does not have a federal system and infrastructure. I can't think of any. Where is a working model of the system that you propose?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"I'm interested in knowing how you expect a poor state like Mississippi to manage without the federally managed levee system that helped avoid a total disaster last year when the river flooded."

Ask me, 'Why should I care?"
 
Old 02-12-2012, 12:49 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 4,206,368 times
Reputation: 5805
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"I'm interested in knowing how you expect a poor state like Mississippi to manage without the federally managed levee system that helped avoid a total disaster last year when the river flooded."

Ask me, 'Why should I care?"
OK, why should you care?

And then, I ask, why should you NOT care? Would you prefer to excommunicate from the union the states that the union fought so hard to keep? How would this benefit the rest of the union? Which other states would you excommunicate, if you believe that is appropriate? Are states free to leave the union if they believe that they are contributing more than they receive?
 
Old 02-12-2012, 12:49 PM
 
442 posts, read 537,877 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Those are also two of the best state public school systems in the USA
 
Old 02-12-2012, 01:33 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,430,235 times
Reputation: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
OK, why should you care?

And then, I ask, why should you NOT care? Would you prefer to excommunicate from the union the states that the union fought so hard to keep? How would this benefit the rest of the union? Which other states would you excommunicate, if you believe that is appropriate? Are states free to leave the union if they believe that they are contributing more than they receive?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"And then, I ask, why should you NOT care?"

It is not proper to answer a question with a question.

Quote:"Which other states would you excommunicate, if you believe that is appropriate?"

Let's see.... VT, a whole bunch of southern states (MS, LA etc), WI, AZ, NM, TX, CA, WA .... This list is long (what I mean by excommunicate is the people, not the land. They can go live somewhere else, other than in the current 50-states. We can let those southern states turn back into swamps, etc....

Quote:" Are states free to leave the union if they believe that they are contributing more than they receive?"

Nope. If they contribute more than they receive (and can prove it) , they stay. At the moment it is illegal to secede.... we just need to tweak the laws a little.
 
Old 02-12-2012, 02:00 PM
 
3,244 posts, read 7,430,235 times
Reputation: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No, it isn't. It belongs to the government. Even the bible says to render unto Ceasar his due. Taxes are just part of living in society. Do you really expect to enjoy the benefits of society without a bill? It's like anything else. I like my house heated in the winter and lights on at night so I pay DTE. That money belongs to DTE for the service they provided me just like my taxes belong to the government for the services they provide me. AND just like the government, they charge different people different rates. Those who can't afford to heat their homes get a break. I have no issue with that. It's how it should be.

Now you're just being silly. Taking things to extremes doesn't make you look smart, in fact, just the opposite. I have a debt to society because I live in society. It's paid. As to what I do with the rest, I, like you, will answer to my maker. "Unto those who are given much, much is expected".

If society decided they were taking 100% of my labors, I'd leave. I do think people should be entitled to get ahead if they are willing to work but I also believe that we are obligated to take care of the less fortunate and to fund the government to the level the majority decides. I wouldn't mind seeing control of the funds for the poor go to the local level because I think it would be cheaper and more efficient but, for now, the system is what it is until such a time as the majority votes to change it.

Back to the subject at hand, which would be the children of parents who would not educate their children if education were not compulsory and paid for by the government, I will not steal from them just to line my pockets.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"If society decided they were taking 100% of my labors, I'd leave."

I see... so what is the magic number that will make you decide to leave? I am at 50% taxation right now....

Quote:"I also believe that we are obligated to take care of the less fortunate and to fund the government to the level the majority decides."

That is a belief. When I am forced to do it, whether I agree or not, that is another issue.


Quote:"I will not steal from them just to line my pockets."

Then, being so altruistic and humanitarian, you should do it for free. And although you consider me a lowly tutor, I do it for free.
 
Old 02-12-2012, 02:29 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 4,206,368 times
Reputation: 5805
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"And then, I ask, why should you NOT care?"

It is not proper to answer a question with a question.
I beg your pardon.

Quote:

Quote:"Which other states would you excommunicate, if you believe that is appropriate?"

Let's see.... VT, a whole bunch of southern states (MS, LA etc), WI, AZ, NM, TX, CA, WA .... This list is long (what I mean by excommunicate is the people, not the land. They can go live somewhere else, other than in the current 50-states. We can let those southern states turn back into swamps, etc....
Would you buy out the current property owners or would you just vacate their citizenship and deport them?


Quote:
Quote:" Are states free to leave the union if they believe that they are contributing more than they receive?"

Nope. If they contribute more than they receive (and can prove it) , they stay. At the moment it is illegal to secede.... we just need to tweak the laws a little.
Would you do that through the Constitutional process?
 
Old 02-13-2012, 09:29 AM
 
919 posts, read 1,777,883 times
Reputation: 965
"Reality is what you make it. I have made mine. 1). I am not going to pay for your kids to go to school. That one has been solved. 2). I will pay for the services I utilize (and I do). 3). I have properly set up my life so I don't need to rely on others for much of anything. 4). I am happy not dealing with those (hint) who are a burden on society, or have no factual data to back up their statements."

Really? Reality is what you make it? Oh I see, so those 800 imaginary people you hired and the fake nearly $200K you supposedly pay them is the reality that you created. Along the lines of what my 5 year old niece does with her imaginary friends. It's cute when she alters reality, it's a completely different thing when someone like you does it. We have a word for that here in these parts, but it's a family forum.

While you may want to alter reality, you really can't do that with facts. So lets stay with what you claimed, that US schools suck so bad, that you need to get your fake engineers from India. Well, as I showed, both MIT and Duke have less than 1/2 their engineering students going into those professions, primarily due to the fact that overseas public unis are churning out engineers, scientists and technicians and US corps have gone out and altered reality by claiming a shortage of those same professions in order to get those same people at far lower rates. Which shows the lie of what you claimed, that US schools suck so bad that we need to do that. Maybe you may want to alter reality in your surreal world, but too bad for you, the real world isn't going to go along with your perceptions.

And to further show how far into your altered state of reality you've seem to have fallen, you claimed that you pay for all your services. 12 Trillion reasons exist as to why that's a lie. You see, Sparky, there is something called the National Debt, which is the aggregate amount of money the FEDs have to borrow in order to bridge the gap between revenues and expenditures. If your claim was true, that you paid for all the services that you received, we wouldn't be having the debt. And why do we have the debt? Because corporations such as GE, JP Morgan, GoldmanSachs, etc ARENT paying their share of taxes. In fact, data shows that many of the largest US corps paid NO taxes on trillions of dollars of gross revenue. You fit right in with those guys, lying about not having anybody to hire, lying to their shareholders regarding the efficacy of their financial statements, getting Congress to ratify offshoring jobs and importing workers under relaxed immigration standards because they lied about aint any Americans to hire, and on and on. They lied, and since you seem to a quasi spokesman for that manner of thinking, you do pretty much the same thing.

So again Sparky old thing, in your own words, you showed that you have an altered state of reality, which makes you say nonsense about who you hired, what you pay those imaginary friends, claiming that you pay your share when the data shows you don't, and on and on. You're in good company with the corporate liars who whine about paying too much tax, when in reality, they don't. Guys like you, and them, want somebody else to pay the freight, and will alter reality to get such.

Last edited by loloroj; 02-13-2012 at 09:52 AM..
 
Old 02-13-2012, 09:46 AM
 
464 posts, read 659,358 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
what you're posting is straight up irrational.
When someone resorts to ad hominem arguments, they have essentially admitted defeat. Personal attacks and name calling is the weakest form of argumentation.

Your second failure in your arguments is that you propose the Internet as a Straw Man (even though I even refuted that argument). That is, just because Federal Government happened to be involved in developing a dual-use technology (originally intended for military use), the logical implication that you attempt to make is that the rest of the Federal Government waste is useful too, which is clearly not the case. Hence the fallacy of your argument.

There are very few examples of Federal Government success, and a plenitude of examples of Federal Government failure. Moreover, the failures of the Federal Government have caused the dire straights in which we find ourselves.

The Federal Government System created by the Constitution was supposed to be very limited; however, the Constitution has been subverted. The monstrosity that has been created is a result of ignoring the Constitution.

Read Who Killed The Constitution ( http://www.amazon.com/Who-Killed-Con.../dp/0307405753 ) by Thomas Woods and Kevin Gutzman.
 
Old 02-13-2012, 10:02 AM
 
919 posts, read 1,777,883 times
Reputation: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by daminos View Post
When someone resorts to ad hominem arguments, they have essentially admitted defeat. Personal attacks and name calling is the weakest form of argumentation.

Your second failure in your arguments is that you propose the Internet as a Straw Man (even though I even refuted that argument). That is, just because Federal Government happened to be involved in developing a dual-use technology (originally intended for military use), the logical implication that you attempt to make is that the rest of the Federal Government waste is useful too, which is clearly not the case. Hence the fallacy of your argument.

There are very few examples of Federal Government success, and a plenitude of examples of Federal Government failure. Moreover, the failures of the Federal Government have caused the dire straights in which we find ourselves.

The Federal Government System created by the Constitution was supposed to be very limited; however, the Constitution has been subverted. The monstrosity that has been created is a result of ignoring the Constitution.

Read Who Killed The Constitution ( Amazon.com: Who Killed the Constitution?: The Fate of American Liberty from World War I to George W. Bush (9780307405753): Thomas E. Woods Jr., Kevin R. C. Gutzman: Books ) by Thomas Woods and Kevin Gutzman.
Nope wrong again. You keep dodging the issue, which is that you can't pick and choose what you think is waste and a subversion of the Constitution. My point is to show the hypocrisy in much of your thinking. You use a couple of inventions which were funded by the FEDS, in fact, wouldn't have existed if the FEDS didn't fund them.

And you proved nothing. All you did was ignore the fallacy of what most of your thinking is predicated upon. You use the very same items which aren't constitutionally mandated. You use roads, water systems, electrical grids, use the inventions based on FED funded research, and then say that it would have been done anyway through private markets. That is just straight up nonsense. The very reason the FEDs funded and created this stuff in the first place was because the private market COULDNT/WOULDNT take on the risk, the enormous cost, the years without getting a profit. You can't alter reality to buttress an ideology which fails basic logic.

As I was tellin Sparky, I'm gonna tell you, you want something for nothing. Plain and simple, your claims of constitutional basis notwithstanding. You can't pick and choose what you want from the FEDS. This aint a buffet, which basically is what you want.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top