NEWS--PRIVITIZATION coming sooner than later? (private schools, religious studies, pay, IEPs)

[loloroj]

IVORYTICKELER SAID "As a teacher, the thing I see really wrong with education is that we do not hold our students accountable for their own learning. Failure is never their fault. We blame the teacher. Success, however, gets credited to the parents and the student . If you compare the US to countries that where education works, you'll find one major difference (besides the length of the school year) and that is the attitude of students. Education is a privilidge not a right in many countries."

Much of this I completely agree. After having worked as a CPA for many years, and various other fields where I needed to use that background, I went back to school to become a Physics teacher. Starting out as a sub in the nonelective math classes, I saw too many kids who made no effort, none, in terms of their own education. They were passive, uncommitted, totally distracted and simply incapable of knowing how to go about learning what we taught. If they had been employed and displayed any of these tendencies, they would have been fired.

Large measure of the problem included the fact that they were dead broke. Over 1/2 of the students were on food aide, many ate their only meal at school. I was stunned at the number of kids on parole/probation, who had parent/s in prison, who were homeless or were on the verge of being so. I cannot expect that these students are going to do well, it would be a minor miracle if they had excelled.

But I also so far too many students overwhelmed with sports and socializing, and the need to pander to that nonsense. My state, Oregon, has the shortest school year in the country. In many cases, most of the high school students do not attend class for more than three hours in the day, due to teacher layoffs and the subsequent cutting of classes. But a full sports menu is an option, when kids cannot be in class, no tutoring or remedial help is available. Yet this has gone on for years, and I've yet to hear parents demand that full school days be brought back. Instead I see apathy, boredom and a full throated roar for athletics, both at the hs and university level. ( The only place that I've seen this type of mania is in Alabama, and we can see the academic achievement of Deep South schools.)

We need to face facts. We are good at what we prioritize. American high school athletes are probably the most skilled in the world. Academically no where close to the top. Recently the head football coach at LSU, Les Miles, was addressing the student body in regards to his latest recruiting class, and his rant against a 18 yo quarterback who spurned his school for Notre Dame went viral. What was amazing wasn't so much his rant, after all, football coaches are paid to be myopic, insular nutjobs. Rather it was that the university wasted resources and money in order for a football coach to talk to the student body about football! This is precisely the lack of any perspective which education has fostered. Louisiana has one of the lowest student achievement rates in the nation, but it has no problem using state resources in order to talk football.

So the question is, imo, why are there no shortage of great hs athletes, but a shortage of hs scholars? We have no problem motivating kids to workout on their own, to run sprints uphill, to increase their benchpress, but big problems if we want kids to attend after school tutoring sessions, read books on their own, or patronize the few educational services available in our school districts? Something is seriously wrong with the nation's thinking and psyche.....

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

The bottom line is most people work only as hard as they have to to survive. Doesn't matter if it is private industry, government, education, or if you are a teacher or student.

UGH...just because teachers leave at the time they are allowed to doesn't mean those are the only hours they work . I happen to stay at school for an hour and a half because I teach a lab based class and I have no choice. I can't mix chemicals and process waste at home. I average 15 hours a week of work at home on top of the 9 hours I'm at the school. Just because you don't see those 15 hours doesn't mean I don't work them.

I disagree on most people working only as hard as they need to survive. It may be true for hourly workers but not the professional set. Both in industry and teaching I found/find that my coworkers pride themselves on doing their job well and that takes preparation. For teachers, our lesson plans don't auto download to our brains when we walk in the door in the morning and the grading fairy doesn't grade our student's work while we sleep and the print shop doesn't figure out what we need printed and have it waiting for us when we get there. While I put in more face hours than many of the teachers in my building, I would not be able to tell you how many hours they work because they may work many of them at home. What I can see is that they are well prepared and I know it takes putting in time to be well prepared. Believe it or not, even if you're teacing the exact same lesson you did last year on this date, you need to review the material before you step in front of the classroom. You can forget a lot in a year.

The best students are competing to get into the best colleges. If you look at international test data, you'll see that the top 10% of students, worldwide, compare favorably. It's the other 90% we fail to educate. The ones who aren't competing. We always have educated kids who wanted to learn well. A good teacher has a lot to offer a student who wants to learn but little that a student who doesn't want to learn is even willing to look at. When dealing with the latter set, teachers have to be entertainers and figure out how to trick kids into learning. I was told, several times, that I wasn't fun enough when I was at the charter school and that kids would pay attention if I weren't so boring. I didn't become more fun when I switced districts but I have fewer issues with students just not paying attention. Most of my current students have parents who expect to see good grades.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

What will you do about parents who decided not to spend money on their child's education? You are operating on the assumption that every parents cares. Trust me, they don't all care. Some will choose to spend as little as possible on education (assuming it's still required) and spend the rest on a new car.Which is why the government got into education in the first place. Not every parent values education for their kids. Not every parent can afford an education for their kids. As a tax payer, I am opposed to parents being handed money intended for education and spending it as they see fit.

The attitude of many parents is downright scary.

I'm not sure how I feel about open enrollment. I'm not sure it solves anything. We have that option with charter schools now and it would, probably, be best to wait a few years and see whether the existance of charter schools has any actual impact on education. But I do think that parents should be able to choose a private school to get the state money for educating their child as long as that school is not associated with a religion (I believe in separation of church and state) when the home district is a failing district. That's the one part of NCLB I actually agree with.

Charter schools are a mixed bag. Like most schools, they tend to do as well as their demographic would indicate. Because they attract parents who actually care about education for their kids, they tend to be a little better than their feeder districts but by removing their kids they make the feeder district poorer. One child now benefits at the expense of another who had the misfortune to be born to parents who don't care or can't afford to do anything about their situation (While charter schools are free, you, often lose the local bus to pick your kids up for school. We had to drive our dd's several miles to a central pick up point and that is just not an option for many working parents. You can't drop your kids off in a parking lot at 6:00 AM for bus pick up at 7:30 because you need to be at work by 7:00.)

I wish I knew what the solution was. The only thing I can see that would help would be a radical shift in attitude towards education. Too many of our kids view it as something to be tolerated and resisted. When the teacher's first job is policing behaviors, education is second and second rate. The charter school I worked for saw a, significant, jump in science scores the two years I taught there (dropped right back where it was when I left) but I was not the teacher for the job because I couldn't keep on top of the behavior issues. I'm in a school where the norm is for students to care about grades now (few care about learning but holding the grade up as a carrot works) and I can actually teach. I still have some behaviors to police but, most of the time, I just have to call home (calls home when I was in the charter school were useless as the parents were most likely to either blame me or excuse the student's behavior or deny it ever happened....). If my only option had been schools like the charter school, test scores or not, I would have had to get out of teaching. I can't be effective in a disruptive classroom. (not surprisingly, I was the 5th chemistry teacher in 10 years and they've had two more in the two years since I left).

I don't see this attitude towards education changing without drastic changes in the system. NCLB did not do it, it made it worse. I look at the rise in the number of Christian schools and homeschooling, to mean that many parent care and think there is an alternative to public schools. If enough kids are pulled out of public schools, will the public schools change?

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

I don't see this attitude towards education changing without drastic changes in the system. NCLB did not do it, it made it worse. I look at the rise in the number of Christian schools and homeschooling, to mean that many parent care and think there is an alternative to public schools. If enough kids are pulled out of public schools, will the public schools change?

Yes, for the worse. If you pull the students whose parents care, you're left with the ones whose parents don't care. The three biggest predictors of educational success (ignoring genetics) are SES (determines, among other things, the quality of the schools), maternal education and having parents who are involved in your education.

The question is how do we educate kids who have parents who don't care. Who don't want to be in school in the first place? The only thing I can think of is to pay them for grades. Treat school like a job. The higher performers get more. Grading would have to be very consistent and reflect only the student's performance (not effort and no extra credit). Common assessments would be necessary.

If we don't find a way to get students to want to learn, education is a lost cause. Good teachers can teach kids who want to learn but few teachers can teach kids who don't want to learn. There are some who can pull it off but they are the rare exception and there are not enough of them to go around. We need to change the student's attitudes. Even just having a store in the school where students can spend earned points might work. Sylvan did this with my daughter. Each week, she earned points that she could save up and spend on things they had for her to buy. They have great results because they motivate the student to want to learn.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

UGH...just because teachers leave at the time they are allowed to doesn't mean those are the only hours they work . I wish people would grow a brain cell and figure that out. I happen to stay at school for an hour and a half because I teach a lab based class and I have no choice. I can't mix chemicals at home (used to when I worked at the charter school due to having more resources at home but I don't need to do that anymore). I average 15 hours a week of work at home on top of the 9 hours I'm at the school. Just because you don't see those 15 hours doesn't mean I don't work them.

I never meant to infer those are the only hour people worked, yet I suspect many did no work at home. I graded most of my homework and test at home and entered grades online.

I disagree on most people working only as hard as they need to survive. It may be true for hourly workers but not the professional set. Both in industry and teaching I found/find that my coworkers pride themselves on doing their job well and that takes preparation. For teachers, our lesson plans don't auto download to our brains when we walk in the door in the morning and the grading fairy doesn't grade our student's work while we sleep and the print shop doesn't figure out what we need printed and have it waiting for us when we get there. While I put in more face hours than many of the teachers in my building, I would not be able to tell you how many hours they work because they may work many of them at home. What I can see is that they are well prepared and I know it takes putting in time to be well prepared. Believe it or not, even if you're teacing the exact same lesson you did last year on this date, you need to review the material before you step in front of the classroom. You can forget a lot in a year.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I worked for a public accounting firm where you could find someone in the office at 9PM on a Saturday night. I have worked in other places where you could get run over leaving at quitting time. The difference was how competitive the organization was. The accounting firm was "up or out." There are huge differences in attitudes in professional type organizations.

[nana053]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

Not necessarily true and if you lived in the area, you would know better. Same for those of a different religious background. Trust me, both schools get a range of kids from urban minorities(mostly Black) to upper middle class suburban Whites. I personally know Black people that went to both schools and that are not catholic. I'm talking about attending these schools from the 1970's until now. You can get financial aid for both schools too.

Bishop Grimes Jr-sr High School - Private School

Bishop Ludden Jr Sr High School - Private School

Also, here is a program that has a history of allowing some inner city, minority kids to attend Catholic schools in the area: Father Champlin's Guardian Angel Society

Sure there are a few minorities there. For Bishop Grimes, here's the greatschools.com breakdown - 96% white, 2% black, 1% hispanic.

Student Teacher Ratio Bishop Grimes High School - East Syracuse, New York - NY

For Bishop Ludden, it's 86% white, 9% black, 2% hispanic, 2% asian. So that one is a bit more diverse, but it is also less highly rated.

Seriously, these are not diverse, they probably do not have many special education students (and many autistic students can do the academics).

These schools are subsidized by the Diocese which keeps the tuition low compared to secular prep schools.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I worked for a public accounting firm where you could find someone in the office at 9PM on a Saturday night. I have worked in other places where you could get run over leaving at quitting time. The difference was how competitive the organization was. The accounting firm was "up or out." There are huge differences in attitudes in professional type organizations.

I, really, have not met professionals (at least not a group) who raced for the door at quitting time. While teachers do tend to leave when they can, that doesn't mean they aren't working at home. You are confusing face time with work time and they are not the same thing. If there is no reason to stay, why not leave? I have reason because working out labs is best done in the lab.

To be honest, I don't think it's possible to teach well and work only your face hours. If a teacher is teaching well, they are, quite likely, putting in time in order to do so.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I, really, have not met professionals (at least not a group) who raced for the door at quitting time. While teachers do tend to leave when they can, that doesn't mean they aren't working at home. You are confusing face time with work time and they are not the same thing.

I know the difference.

To be honest, I don't think it's possible to teach well and work only your face hours. If a teacher is teaching well, they are, quite likely, putting in time in order to do so.

That is exactly my point!

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

That is exactly my point!

HUH???? and I quote "Most of the teachers are dedicated to their students and try to do a good job."

You agree that teachers who teach well put in hours, claim "most" teachers are dedicated BUT claim the majority pretty much all work 7.5 hours per day??? Which is it??? Are the majority working 7.5 hours per day or are the majority dedicated and putting in the extra time needed to do the job well. You can't have it both ways.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

HUH???? and I quote "Most of the teachers are dedicated to their students and try to do a good job."

You agree that teachers who teach well put in hours, claim "most" teachers are dedicated BUT claim the majority pretty much all work 7.5 hours per day??? Which is it??? Are the majority working 7.5 hours per day or are the majority dedicated and putting in the extra time needed to do the job well. You can't have it both ways.

There is no way for anyone to know if teachers are working at home. It would be difficult to grade many tests or homework, or do much serious lesson planning during a prep period. It sounds like your school is way above average. It doesn't sound like the schools I have seen. For example, my son's physics teacher hardly taught anything. He usually talked about politics.

I think most teachers can get by with minimal out of school work. That doesn't mean they are a poor teacher. It depends how you define dedicated. Is dedicated somewhat who constantly preps for their classes and gives challenging assignments or one who cares about their students? Our public schools could be much better if students and teachers worked harder. Here is another perspective: I see many teachers teaching for part of a period and giving students social time at the end. Students line up at the door waiting for the bell to ring. Around the end of April, students and teachers start to wind down. You hear comments like, "Won't get much done the rest of the year." The AP classes are the worst since they take the AP exams between May 7 and May 18th. That is the last day of class for those subjects.