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Unread 02-06-2012, 08:43 AM
 
647 posts, read 522,502 times
Reputation: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
----------------------------------------------------------------------

They do that because they want a very good life, to be able to send their kids to any school they want in an often very successful manner. I don't see that as a problem, I see that as people striving to get ahead, for which I give them much credit. It has nothing to do with social status, or feminism (my wife makes as much as I do, but who cares?). It sets up an environment where the potential for raising excellent students may be easier, as many constraints do not exist. But to temper that, a friend of mine came from Vietnam with $20 in her pocket, and nothing else. She is now one of the top plastic surgeons at MA General.

Don't know where you live, but most private elementary schools around here (and New England is loaded with them), are going to set you back over $15K a year.)
When I say living off 2 incomes, I mean needing 2 incomes to pay the mortgage. Therefore there is no $$ left over for private education. My family was very much working class, yet I never attended public schools. My dad worked, my mom stayed home with us until we entered school, she got a part time job which afforded us to go to a private elementary school. When we were older she got a full time job and was able to put us through a private Catholic High school.

Oh, as for prices... I live down the street from the country day school of the holy union in Groton, which will set you back 4k per student k-8, then a little further away are Catholic schools such a bishop guertin in Nashua, NH is around 11k.

My point is, my parents did not sit around and **** and moan about something they could not change (public education), they went out and worked harder, and put us in private schools, an environment where their voice was very much heard. (I had teachers, principals, and head masters removed due to parents. complaints).

I also agree with your point about public education in New England and the prices to enter a town just to get the schools. If you had a voucher program, it would make it a bit easier for parents to live in a less expensive community, then get top notch education for their children in a neighboring town, be it private or public,.

 
Unread 02-06-2012, 09:04 AM
 
3,174 posts, read 2,261,901 times
Reputation: 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by marigolds6 View Post
Although, since there is no requirement that private schools have any level of accreditation nor test children in any way, what will inevitably happen is that schools will develop which cater to vouchers.

First, there is no 'catering to vouchers', as every student gets one. The private schools are a very small part of this. In most cases, these vouchers would be used for the public school of your choice (assuming there are spaces available). They do that in a few areas around here.

(As an aside, for accreditation, Havard isn't).

Drop your kid off at 7 am, pick them up at 5 pm. Hand over your voucher for $6k. Your kids get straight As and a high school diploma and don't worry about tests or college.

I guess I shouldn't have even mentioned the private school topic, as it appears that it is becoming a fixation. So let me restate "vouchers should be given to students so they can pick the public school of their choice." (though the vouchers could be used for any school).
Some public school systems cost more than others. The value of the voucher you would get would be equal to what your local school system pays. If you go to another school system that costs less, there is a surplus. If you go to another school system that costs more, the parents need to fund the difference. The net effect is no different than a family that cannot afford an expensive town, to potentially get a better school, which is exactly the case today, other than potentially for a small increase in self-paid expenses, the student has the opportunity to go to a better public school, without the huge expense of private school.

I would like to know though, as a homeowner with no children at all, how the voucher people are going to compensate me for not using my property tax contribution?

Not sure that I exactly understand your statement... the vouchers are derived from property tax slated for the schools, as they are today.
That too is a sore spot for me, though somewhat of a different topic. Currently, the taxes you pay fund the school system, and you don't get compensated for them. In my case, if the public school is $6K/year, then personally I am entirely funding 3 students each year, and with no kids, receive no compensation whatsoever.
Comments in red.
 
Unread 02-06-2012, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,374 posts, read 13,950,815 times
Reputation: 9930
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"Pulling money out of the system is unfair to everyone left in. It's not YOUR money."

I see. The $1500/mo that I write the check for property taxes (that is only the fraction that goes directly to the school system), is not MY money. I guess I didn't earn it, and I picked it off my money tree in the back yard.
Putting money into a system that some taxpayers never use is unfair to them.

Quote:"All of the tax payers"

I believe I qualify as one of those.

Quote:" Sorry, but public education isn't about YOUR child."

I know it is not. I have none, don't plan to, and never will. I also will never ask other taxpayers to pay for something I produced, if I did have kids.

I think there should be a voucher system, where the students can go wherever they want (including private schools). The voucher will cover a fixed amount for each student, and if the school costs more than that, parents need to come up with the moeny.
BUT YOUR $1500 is pooled with other people's money and they have just as much vested here as you do. If we are to have public education, you don't get the right to take YOUR money out. The PUBLIC voted this in. Public education is to benefit society. It's not about individual tax payers or parents. It's about society paying for an educated society and that takes all of us doing our part. If you want more for your kids, you're welcome to pay for it yourself.

I have no issue with a voucher system for public schools but private schools should not receive public money unless there is no other school for the child to attend. Private schools are private. They shouldn't be run on tax dollars.

Yes, YOU are a tax payer and you have as much voice as the next tax payer. When the majority decides that public dollars should fund private ventures, it will happen. Until then, you're stuck with what the majority decides.

Given that you are very wealthy, I would think this would not be an issue for you. The $1500/month you pay in taxes covers my house payment, my taxes, my insurance and my utility bills. Just send your kids where you want to send them. It always amazes me when the rich whine.
 
Unread 02-06-2012, 12:26 PM
 
3,174 posts, read 2,261,901 times
Reputation: 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
BUT YOUR $1500 is pooled with other people's money and they have just as much vested here as you do. If we are to have public education, you don't get the right to take YOUR money out. The PUBLIC voted this in. Public education is to benefit society. It's not about individual tax payers or parents. It's about society paying for an educated society and that takes all of us doing our part. If you want more for your kids, you're welcome to pay for it yourself.

I have no issue with a voucher system for public schools but private schools should not receive public money unless there is no other school for the child to attend. Private schools are private. They shouldn't be run on tax dollars.

Yes, YOU are a tax payer and you have as much voice as the next tax payer. When the majority decides that public dollars should fund private ventures, it will happen. Until then, you're stuck with what the majority decides.

Given that you are very wealthy, I would think this would not be an issue for you. The $1500/month you pay in taxes covers my house payment, my taxes, my insurance and my utility bills. Just send your kids where you want to send them. It always amazes me when the rich whine.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"BUT YOUR $1500 is pooled with other people's money and they have just as much vested here as you do."

First, I don't want to be vested, and second, I guess you are saying that since it is (pseudo) legal to steal from them via taxation, it is ok to steal from me as well. In terms of return-on investment, I am much much more heavily vested than many, as I use none of the resources.

Quote:" Until then, you're stuck with what the majority decides."
Nope. My house in unincorporated land is almost complete. I won't be paying anything for things I don't use. (Well, there is still Federal tax).

Quote:"Given that you are very wealthy, I would think this would not be an issue for you."

Far from it.

Quote:"Just send your kids where you want to send them."

For about the 10th time in all these posts, I stated I neither have, nor ever will have any.

Quote:"It always amazes me when the rich whine."

Everyone whines when there is an expense thrust upon them by others, demonstrating that those imposing the burden don't care about anyone but themselves.

Quote:"The $1500/month you pay in taxes covers my house payment, my taxes, my insurance and my utility bills."

The topic is not about what you pay for all you bills. My statement was that schooling is expensive, and the gross inequity as to who is paying for it.

(I did contemplate, with the SO, however, since I fund some three students in this very good school system, and I have enough bedrooms to take in 6 students... have their parents establish their child's legal residency of course, and their parents supply all food/clothing etc, then the town would come out WAY ahead by just eliminating my school-targeted property tax. Of course I would be helping society, as now there will be additional well-schooled people).
 
Unread 02-06-2012, 01:10 PM
 
920 posts, read 604,802 times
Reputation: 911
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"BUT YOUR $1500 is pooled with other people's money and they have just as much vested here as you do."

First, I don't want to be vested, and second, I guess you are saying that since it is (pseudo) legal to steal from them via taxation, it is ok to steal from me as well. In terms of return-on investment, I am much much more heavily vested than many, as I use none of the resources.

Quote:" Until then, you're stuck with what the majority decides."
Nope. My house in unincorporated land is almost complete. I won't be paying anything for things I don't use. (Well, there is still Federal tax).

Quote:"Given that you are very wealthy, I would think this would not be an issue for you."

Far from it.

Quote:"Just send your kids where you want to send them."

For about the 10th time in all these posts, I stated I neither have, nor ever will have any.

Quote:"It always amazes me when the rich whine."

Everyone whines when there is an expense thrust upon them by others, demonstrating that those imposing the burden don't care about anyone but themselves.

Quote:"The $1500/month you pay in taxes covers my house payment, my taxes, my insurance and my utility bills."

The topic is not about what you pay for all you bills. My statement was that schooling is expensive, and the gross inequity as to who is paying for it.

(I did contemplate, with the SO, however, since I fund some three students in this very good school system, and I have enough bedrooms to take in 6 students... have their parents establish their child's legal residency of course, and their parents supply all food/clothing etc, then the town would come out WAY ahead by just eliminating my school-targeted property tax. Of course I would be helping society, as now there will be additional well-schooled people).

Psuedo legal to steal from you? You don't use any of the resources? For your information you happen to be using both a computer and the internet, which were/are government inventions. The first electronic computer was created back in the 40's by the US Army, and the Navy was the agency which created many of the operating programs which are now commonplace. Furthermore, DAARPA was the government agency which was the catalyst for the creation of the Internet, which first arose back in the 70's.

The point is that generations of Americans paid taxes to fund those inventions and never had the chance to use them. Both my parents, aunts and uncles died long before they had a chance to use those inventions. As did millions of others, but YOU use them, you benefit and you then use these publicly funded services to complain about you gettin riped off. Sorry but that kind of thinking has to be called what it is, hypocrisy. You don't want to pay taxes, but you want benefits that come from someone else paying the freight. And furthermore you want public money to fund your private education, just as you wanted legions of taxpayers to pay for your electricity, your computer, your internet. And please don't even try to come with the "I paid for my 'puter/Internet/whathaveyou from some corporation." The initial money was public, it was then given away, and we didn't fight to maintain a public good.

Your argument is far from compelling and I hear it time and again from people who want something for nothing.
 
Unread 02-06-2012, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,374 posts, read 13,950,815 times
Reputation: 9930
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"BUT YOUR $1500 is pooled with other people's money and they have just as much vested here as you do."

First, I don't want to be vested, and second, I guess you are saying that since it is (pseudo) legal to steal from them via taxation, it is ok to steal from me as well. In terms of return-on investment, I am much much more heavily vested than many, as I use none of the resources.

Quote:" Until then, you're stuck with what the majority decides."
Nope. My house in unincorporated land is almost complete. I won't be paying anything for things I don't use. (Well, there is still Federal tax).

Quote:"Given that you are very wealthy, I would think this would not be an issue for you."

Far from it.

Quote:"Just send your kids where you want to send them."

For about the 10th time in all these posts, I stated I neither have, nor ever will have any.

Quote:"It always amazes me when the rich whine."

Everyone whines when there is an expense thrust upon them by others, demonstrating that those imposing the burden don't care about anyone but themselves.

Quote:"The $1500/month you pay in taxes covers my house payment, my taxes, my insurance and my utility bills."

The topic is not about what you pay for all you bills. My statement was that schooling is expensive, and the gross inequity as to who is paying for it.

(I did contemplate, with the SO, however, since I fund some three students in this very good school system, and I have enough bedrooms to take in 6 students... have their parents establish their child's legal residency of course, and their parents supply all food/clothing etc, then the town would come out WAY ahead by just eliminating my school-targeted property tax. Of course I would be helping society, as now there will be additional well-schooled people).
Do you, SERIOUSLY, think you do not benefit from living in an educated society? Do you REALLY think life would be improved if we didn't fund education?

The point for the comparison on what I spend is that you, obviously, are wealthy and yet you complain about funding education. You do realize that if you don't fund education, you're more likely to be the victim of a crime....

As I said, I really don't get the wealthy complaining about what they don't have....Count your blessings...one of which is the luxury of living in an educated society...

All of us will fund multiple students during our lifetimes. While I only pay about half of what is allocated for my dd's, I pay it for the entire time that I am paying property taxes. Why you think this makes you, somehow, entitled to break the law is beyond me...

Sorry but being taxed is no more stealing from you than it is stealing from me. We pay taxes to have the society we have. If you don't like it, you're welcome to leave the country.
 
Unread 02-06-2012, 01:56 PM
 
3,174 posts, read 2,261,901 times
Reputation: 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
Psuedo legal to steal from you? You don't use any of the resources? For your information you happen to be using both a computer and the internet, which were/are government inventions. The first electronic computer was created back in the 40's by the US Army, and the Navy was the agency which created many of the operating programs which are now commonplace. Furthermore, DAARPA was the government agency which was the catalyst for the creation of the Internet, which first arose back in the 70's.

The point is that generations of Americans paid taxes to fund those inventions and never had the chance to use them. Both my parents, aunts and uncles died long before they had a chance to use those inventions. As did millions of others, but YOU use them, you benefit and you then use these publicly funded services to complain about you gettin riped off. Sorry but that kind of thinking has to be called what it is, hypocrisy. You don't want to pay taxes, but you want benefits that come from someone else paying the freight. And furthermore you want public money to fund your private education, just as you wanted legions of taxpayers to pay for your electricity, your computer, your internet. And please don't even try to come with the "I paid for my 'puter/Internet/whathaveyou from some corporation." The initial money was public, it was then given away, because it was given away and we didn't fight to maintain a public good.

Your argument is far from compelling and I hear it time and again from people who want something for nothing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow... now that was missing the point.

Quote:"Psuedo legal to steal from you? You don't use any of the resources? "

When it comes to taxes for education, the amount I use hovers around zip, zero, nil, null, void, goose egg, nada, zilch, nix, and a few others I can't think of right now. But Ivory thinks it is ok to raid my savings to pay for it.

Quote:"For your information you happen to be using both a computer and the internet, which were/are government inventions."

I do, I love it, and gladly would pay for it. I am very happy to pay for things I use. (I used to design backbone equipment that made very high speed internet/phone now pervasive in the US, and one of the customers was the government) You are preaching to the choir. The government started it, but private industry made it blossom.

Quote:"The point is that generations of Americans paid taxes to fund those inventions and never had the chance to use them."

We aren't talking about 'inventions'. Don't know where that came from.

Quote:"As did millions of others, but YOU use them, you benefit and you then use these publicly funded services to complain about you gettin riped off.

I don't complain about them in the least... they directly benefit me, I use them, and I would have gladly paid for them if I had been there.
Getting ripped off? I think this was about the best money ever spent!

Quote:"Furthermore, DAARPA was the government agency which was the catalyst for the creation of the Internet, which first arose back in the 70's."

Tell me about it. I have been doing telecom for years (and BTW, Al Gore did not invent it ) Only 2 A's in DARPA.
Packet-switched networks started in the 60's.

Quote:"You don't want to pay taxes, but you want benefits that come from someone else paying the freight."

Pure speculation, and utterly false. I will gladly pay taxes for those things I use. I am all for a VAT. Any service or facility that you use or any burden on society that you create should come with corresponding remuneration. It is really simple.

Quote:"And furthermore you want public money to fund your private education, just as you wanted legions of taxpayers to pay for your electricity, your computer, your internet."

Geez, such wild assumptions. All I stated was that each student to get a fixed-dollar voucher (the amount dictated from their town/city) to attend the school of their choice. I don't want ANYONE to pay for any of the services I use. That is my responsibility. I also don't want anyone to pay for services that others use, on my nickel.

Reading comprehension time

Quote:"Your argument is far from compelling and I hear it time and again from people who want something for nothing"

You have this entirely backwards. "I don't want to get 'nothing' (something I don't use or care about) for 'something' (my hard-earned money). Even if the technology or whatever the end product is ultimately, it would be only fair to let me choose where my (forcefully taken) money goes.
 
Unread 02-06-2012, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
2,012 posts, read 1,389,371 times
Reputation: 1764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
BUT YOUR $1500 is pooled with other people's money and they have just as much vested here as you do. If we are to have public education, you don't get the right to take YOUR money out. The PUBLIC voted this in. Public education is to benefit society. It's not about individual tax payers or parents. It's about society paying for an educated society and that takes all of us doing our part. If you want more for your kids, you're welcome to pay for it yourself.

I have no issue with a voucher system for public schools but private schools should not receive public money unless there is no other school for the child to attend. Private schools are private. They shouldn't be run on tax dollars.

Yes, YOU are a tax payer and you have as much voice as the next tax payer. When the majority decides that public dollars should fund private ventures, it will happen. Until then, you're stuck with what the majority decides.

Given that you are very wealthy, I would think this would not be an issue for you. The $1500/month you pay in taxes covers my house payment, my taxes, my insurance and my utility bills. Just send your kids where you want to send them. It always amazes me when the rich whine.
So should public money be used for charter schools and cyber schools?
 
Unread 02-06-2012, 02:37 PM
 
3,174 posts, read 2,261,901 times
Reputation: 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Do you, SERIOUSLY, think you do not benefit from living in an educated society? Do you REALLY think life would be improved if we didn't fund education?

The point for the comparison on what I spend is that you, obviously, are wealthy and yet you complain about funding education. You do realize that if you don't fund education, you're more likely to be the victim of a crime....

As I said, I really don't get the wealthy complaining about what they don't have....Count your blessings...one of which is the luxury of living in an educated society...

All of us will fund multiple students during our lifetimes. While I only pay about half of what is allocated for my dd's, I pay it for the entire time that I am paying property taxes. Why you think this makes you, somehow, entitled to break the law is beyond me...

Sorry but being taxed is no more stealing from you than it is stealing from me. We pay taxes to have the society we have. If you don't like it, you're welcome to leave the country.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"Do you, SERIOUSLY, think you do not benefit from living in an educated society? Do you REALLY think life would be improved if we didn't fund education?"

Well, I have been heavily exposed to the Far East culture over the last few years... In my engineering lab, 45% of the employees are from India, 45% from Asian countries. Most are not US citizens. Theses are all the top engineers I could find. I go down to MIT frequently, and the percentages there are somewhat close. Having an Asian SO, I have come to learn that a school system can only do just so much. The culture and family expectations have an influence far beyond whatever 'funded' schools yield. I spend part of my time making sure they have valid visas, etc. To make a successful company, you have to have the best.

Quote:"Do you REALLY think life would be improved if we didn't fund education?"

I think the horse is already out of the barn.

Quote:"The point for the comparison on what I spend is that you, obviously, are wealthy and yet you complain about funding education."

I am only complaining for paying for a service that I would choose not to fund. This IS a free country, and we are all entitled to an opinion.

Quote:" You do realize that if you don't fund education, you're more likely to be the victim of a crime...."

Hmm.. go ready my posts on 'Self-sufficiency and Preparedness'

Quote:"As I said, I really don't get the wealthy complaining about what they don't have."

No complaints here... I have everything I want. I do complain, however, when others feel they are entitled to the fruits of my efforts, and they created the situation themselves.


Quote:"All of us will fund multiple students during our lifetimes."

And up to this point, I have been, but that is about to come to a screeching halt.

Quote:"Why you think this makes you, somehow, entitled to break the law is beyond me..."

Living in unincorporated land is breaking the law? Uh oh, then we are going to need a lot more jails.

Quote:"Sorry but being taxed is no more stealing from you than it is stealing from me."

Services we both use is not 'stealing from each other'. When one party uses services that another party does not, will not, nor ever use, and has to pay for, that is stealing. I still want you to subsidize my Aston Martin, but you can never drive it.

Quote:"If you don't like it, you're welcome to leave the country."

Either that (New Zealand looks nice), or, just use the legal way around paying school taxes, which I have.
 
Unread 02-06-2012, 02:58 PM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
2,082 posts, read 1,118,082 times
Reputation: 1456
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by marigolds6
Although, since there is no requirement that private schools have any level of accreditation nor test children in any way, what will inevitably happen is that schools will develop which cater to vouchers.

First, there is no 'catering to vouchers', as every student gets one. The private schools are a very small part of this. In most cases, these vouchers would be used for the public school of your choice (assuming there are spaces available). They do that in a few areas around here.

(As an aside, for accreditation, Havard isn't).

Drop your kid off at 7 am, pick them up at 5 pm. Hand over your voucher for $6k. Your kids get straight As and a high school diploma and don't worry about tests or college.

I guess I shouldn't have even mentioned the private school topic, as it appears that it is becoming a fixation. So let me restate "vouchers should be given to students so they can pick the public school of their choice." (though the vouchers could be used for any school).
Some public school systems cost more than others. The value of the voucher you would get would be equal to what your local school system pays. If you go to another school system that costs less, there is a surplus. If you go to another school system that costs more, the parents need to fund the difference. The net effect is no different than a family that cannot afford an expensive town, to potentially get a better school, which is exactly the case today, other than potentially for a small increase in self-paid expenses, the student has the opportunity to go to a better public school, without the huge expense of private school.

I would like to know though, as a homeowner with no children at all, how the voucher people are going to compensate me for not using my property tax contribution?

Not sure that I exactly understand your statement... the vouchers are derived from property tax slated for the schools, as they are today.
That too is a sore spot for me, though somewhat of a different topic. Currently, the taxes you pay fund the school system, and you don't get compensated for them. In my case, if the public school is $6K/year, then personally I am entirely funding 3 students each year, and with no kids, receive no compensation whatsoever.


Comments in red.
I think you are talking about interdistrict transfer, not vouchers. Vouchers are a phrase used almost exclusively for public to private transfers with paid tuition.

Interdistrict transfer is the system by which a state allows a student to transfer to the public school of their choice, and the originating district pays the tuition cost to the destination district up to the cost of education in the originating district with the parents picking up the difference. Virtually every state already allows this.

A slightly different system is open enrollment, which is common in the midwest and spreading to other states. In open enrollment, the originating district pays the full tuition cost for the destination district, regardless of the difference. The originating district has the option to deny the transfer if the differential involves special education and is above some threshold amount.

Missouri has passed a third system called the Turner system. Under this system, any student who resides in an unaccredited district can open enroll into any school in an adjacent accredited district. This includes students who have never attended the originating district and the originating district has no option to deny the transfer under any conditions.
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