How do you conclude that private school provided better service? (college, private schools)

[Charles Wallace]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

I am just wondering are there states where someone with a general education degree can teach AP Chemistry or are you talking only about private schools? My experience with the private school my kids attend is that the teachers all have degrees in their subject area. However, there is nothing that requires that to be the case.

In public schools in FL you generally cannot teach AP Chemistry with a general ed degree unless you have 30 hours of science, and 18 hours of chemistry.

I think it depends on how desperate the school is. I've been yanked in to teach subjects for which I had precious little background, much less a degree. I'm also familiar with a situation in which the AP English teacher had no degree in English, but in some other field.

[Charles]

So, do get the thread back on topic (the thread is diverging with everyone explaining why they did a certain thing).....Does anyone who has sent their kids to private school have apples to apples evidence to justify the decision?

[maf763]

I'm not sure you question can be answered. It seems that you want empirical evidence, however such evidence is only meaningful at a macro level. Most parents will make the decision about schools based on what is right for their child, a decidedly micro-level application. And if a kid went to private school, you can't compare her results to what they would have been had she also gone to public school. I just don't see what kind of evidence would satisfy your question.

[Chemistry_Guy]

Originally Posted by Charles

So, do get the thread back on topic (the thread is diverging with everyone explaining why they did a certain thing).....Does anyone who has sent their kids to private school have apples to apples evidence to justify the decision?

I don't have kids, but my siblings provide some anecdotal evidence. There are five kids in my family, with me as the oldest followed by brother-sister-brother-sister. Aside from me, all of my siblings went to private gradeschools and tested about the same on standardized tests, in roughly the 90th percentile. One brother and one sister went to exclusive single sex religious private schools and the other two went to the best public school in our city. My parents now say that in hindsight they wish that they insisted in sending all four to the private schools because the public schools did not really challenge the students as much as the private schools did. All of my siblings were A students and extremely successful athletes (runners and swimmers) and went on to good colleges, but the two that went to public schools had a slightly more difficult time adjusting to freshman year in college.

As far as concrete evidence - you aren't going to find it because you are comparing apples and oranges. One thing that is very hot in higher education right now is the idea of assessment: how good are the programs at accomplishing defined goals. For a college, assessment all relates back to the mission statement of the university. I am deeply involved right now in higher education assessment and peer review, so I have been able to see the tough choices that need to be made concerning evaluation.

The same concept holds true for primary and secondary education. Different types of institutions have different missions, so you cannot use the same criteria to assess both. For public schools, the metrics of assessment are very well defined, and the best public schools do a fantastic job of meeting them. On the other hand, private schools get to choose, to some extent, how they assess themselves. On one hand, this gives them license to lower standards and assess based on bogus criteria. There are plenty of bad private schools out there.

On the other hand, the best private schools can choose to base their assessment (and thus their curricula) on metrics that are more abstract and in some ways more indicative of successful careers than public schools. For example, some exclusive private schools take pride in their mission to prepare leaders. These schools often have accelerated 'standard' classes in order to make room for a curriculum focused on the skills and interactions associated with positions of leadership, and as a result have quite a few students wash out during their first year. By the metrics by which public schools are assessed, these schools would be considered failures, as the retention rate is low. On the other hand, one could argue that the private school prepared the students exceptionally well for an elite college. The mission of a public school, even a very successful one, is not the same as the mission of an elite prep school, so it is really impossible to directly compare them.

Contrary to the tone of this post, I believe the future of America lives and dies with public schools and I think private schools sometimes do more harm than good by cherrypicking the best and the brightest and removing these students from the public school classroom. As a college professor, I know how much of a difference it makes when students see a peer that is an academic superstar, and I feel like these opportunities are often missed in some public school districts.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by west seattle gal

Two SIGNIFICANT things that can be controlled by going the private school route:

peers/influences
student:teacher ratios

Do you have any idea how many parents send their kids to private schools (often religious in nature) to "straighten them out"? The kids end up finding people to get in trouble with there just like they did in the public school.

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

I am just wondering are there states where someone with a general education degree can teach AP Chemistry or are you talking only about private schools? My experience with the private school my kids attend is that the teachers all have degrees in their subject area. However, there is nothing that requires that to be the case.

In public schools in FL you generally cannot teach AP Chemistry with a general ed degree unless you have 30 hours of science, and 18 hours of chemistry.

I'm not a teacher and am not intimately familiar with the regs in CO, but that sounds similar to me.

[Obrero]

We live in a top 10 district in NJ where most schools are considered decent. Our kids currently attend the public schools but we are switching them to private next year. I am so sick of the "teaching to the test". As an example - one of our kids had a math test (GMADE) with 3 parts. He scored over 95% on 2 parts and about 40% on the 3rd. Our concern that he was obviously not understanding the work on the 3rd part was met with the response.... "oh that doesn't matter because the average of all the scores is 80% (approx) so he is easily passing 2nd grade". Simply. Not. Good. Enough.

[Charles Wallace]

Originally Posted by Obrero

We live in a top 10 district in NJ where most schools are considered decent. Our kids currently attend the public schools but we are switching them to private next year. I am so sick of the "teaching to the test". As an example - one of our kids had a math test (GMADE) with 3 parts. He scored over 95% on 2 parts and about 40% on the 3rd. Our concern that he was obviously not understanding the work on the 3rd part was met with the response.... "oh that doesn't matter because the average of all the scores is 80% (approx) so he is easily passing 2nd grade". Simply. Not. Good. Enough.

Yes, I would agree. I am just sorry that their attitude toward your son's mastery was so blatantly cavalier.

[Hemlock140]

I went to a private high school, a long time ago but to this day 99% of the graduates go on to a 4 year degree. Few public schools have such a record, and those that do are in areas where homes are expensive. Having an entrance exam means that all students are at a similar level and makes it far easier for the teachers to keep them all challenged without the distraction of slower students. Also, private schools will go out of business if they are not better than the public schools, since no one would want to pay the tuition. Around here the nearest private high school is $16,000/year, and they are doing fine despite the two public schools nearby being rated very well. Many of the students are bussed in from nearby cities where the schools are not as good.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by Hemlock140

I went to a private high school, a long time ago but to this day 99% of the graduates go on to a 4 year degree. Few public schools have such a record, and those that do are in areas where homes are expensive. Having an entrance exam means that all students are at a similar level and makes it far easier for the teachers to keep them all challenged without the distraction of slower students. Also, private schools will go out of business if they are not better than the public schools, since no one would want to pay the tuition. Around here the nearest private high school is $16,000/year, and they are doing fine despite the two public schools nearby being rated very well. Many of the students are bussed in from nearby cities where the schools are not as good.

OK, since you're late to the party, I'll fill you in here. Public schools have to take all comers. They have to take kids who need special ed, kids who are just not "academically inclined", kids whose first language is not English. Even in wealthy districts, there are kids who fit the first two criteria. Private schools can cherry pick, and it goes without saying that unmotivated parents are not going to pay $16K in tutition. I disagree that these schools would go out of business if they weren't better than the public schools. A lot of religious schools in particular are not hot shots academically, but parents are willing to spend that kind of money to send their kids to them.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Private schools can cherry pick, and it goes without saying that unmotivated parents are not going to pay $16K in tutition.

To many people this is precisely the appeal of private schools, the ability to have their kids with more motivated peers.