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The environment you're describing is different than the classroom. The workplace is built specifically on making money. All of the workers work to make money for the owner of the company. One person not doing their job putting others behind is "unintended punishment". It isn't necessarily "mass punishment", but the unfortunate consequences of someone being careless and not being up to their job. It can't be helped.
However, this is the question I pose: Why should every student be punished by the teacher for the actions of the guilty? That is the question I pose. That is the question I'm looking for an answer to. How does it help the students who do the right thing and behave? What message does it send to the students who misbehave and disrupt everyone else's lessons? What message does it send to the students who are behaving and doing the right things but purposely get punished because someone else was being defiant and breaking the rules?
I suspect that in teaching, as well as in parenting, it is sometimes difficult to know just who is misbehaving, who "started" it, etc. Something I read in a parenting book a long time ago (written by a real parent, BTW) was that if two (or more) kids get in a fight, etc, discipline them both. Sometimes the one you think started it is not the one who really did.
I also think just about everyone who ever went to school can remember a situation of being punished/disciplined for "something" when someone else was the instigator.
I still think, used judiciously, that group punishment can spur the "good" kids to put peer pressure on the "naughtly" ones to behave, or else!
I suspect that in teaching, as well as in parenting, it is sometimes difficult to know just who is misbehaving, who "started" it, etc. Something I read in a parenting book a long time ago (written by a real parent, BTW) was that if two (or more) kids get in a fight, etc, discipline them both. Sometimes the one you think started it is not the one who really did.
I also think just about everyone who ever went to school can remember a situation of being punished/disciplined for "something" when someone else was the instigator.
I still think, used judiciously, that group punishment can spur the "good" kids to put peer pressure on the "naughtly" ones to behave, or else!
Maybe so, and maybe not. I've grown up very cynical. I've been around students who didn't care either way. It wouldn't work on me because I look at a classroom as a place where everyone is forced to be together. I'm looking out for my best interests. And for me, it would be in my best interests to behave.
It is difficult to find out who started it, especially if you didn't see the incident. However, this is one time the group punishment could be used judiciously. If it were me, I would say this "If someone doesn't start talking now, I'm going to punish all of you". Sometimes that doesn't work because sometimes the perpetrator won't fess up.
But in some instances, it's just the luck of the draw. The examples listed have very little to do with the classroom, however. If you can help it, why would you punish everyone for the actions of a few? How does that help those who behave the right way? It sends the message "it doesn't matter if I do the right thing. I will get punished anyway because someone else is acting stupid". It might make some people not want to live in society.
How is it anymore the luck of the draw than whatever clowns happen to get assigned to the same class as you?
If a group contingency in a high school class really makes some people not want to live in society, there's a LOT more going on that warrants attention. The fact that suffering a consequence due to the behavior of somebody else in your high school chemistry class might send some student into an epic, life-altering meltdown is EXACTLY the reason that basic life lessons, including "sometimes, things aren't fair" aren't bad to incorporate on occasion. "We all got in trouble in chemistry, even though I didn't dooooo anything," is definitely not something that a well-adjusted student should be having a hemorrhage over.
Yes, this has little to do with the classroom. It has a lot more to do with LIFE. You know, that thing out there for which school is supposed to be preparing you. Welcome to not existing in a vacuum.
Last edited by toobusytoday; 04-22-2012 at 04:59 PM..
Reason: removed inappropriate language
I suspect that in teaching, as well as in parenting, it is sometimes difficult to know just who is misbehaving, who "started" it, etc. Something I read in a parenting book a long time ago (written by a real parent, BTW) was that if two (or more) kids get in a fight, etc, discipline them both. Sometimes the one you think started it is not the one who really did.
I also think just about everyone who ever went to school can remember a situation of being punished/disciplined for "something" when someone else was the instigator.
I guarantee that there are very few teachers who are willing to sacrifice precious instructional time to play referee over "who started it."
Talk about opening yourself up EVEN MORE for the cries of "It wasn't me, that's not fair, that's not fair, so and so's lying, you're just targeting me, blah blah." Smart teachers do NOT enter into potential he-said, she-said arguments with students.
I know this topic has been addressed in these forums before, but I continue to encounter teachers who discipline large groups of students for the poor choices of a few. I will AGAIN ask teachers to please do their jobs and NOT use this ineffective practice, and I will give you perspective as a teacher and parent.
Twice last week, my daughter was disciplined for the behavior of other students. In one case, two students woudn't quit messing around during student work time on a very important project where students were preparing for a state competition. The teacher stopped ALL students, told them they couldn't use the time to prepare their projects, that they ALL would have to do it on their own time and gave them busy bookwork (lengthy handout). When some students asked why all students were being penalized, the teacher got upset and said "because Tommy and Johny couldn't behave, so maybe all of you will learn to behave". Huh?
A 2nd time, two students were talking during a teacher lecture. The teacher kept ALL students after class, making them tardy to their next class. In our school, students are disciplined for every tardy. Again, students politely asked why all of them, and she said they rise and fall as a group. Again, huh?
As a classroom teacher myself, I tried this approach years ago. But polite parents pointed out that it isn't the job of fellow students to keep other students in line. She also pointed out that adults in the workplace are rarely penalized for the ill-behavior of others, and she is right. I've never been disciplined at work for the behavior of other teachers. I also learned that my well-behaving students started to NOT behave. When I asked them what was up, they told me that even though they behaved, they still got in trouble. In fact, the students who didn't behave felt more powerful because their choices got other students in trouble.
Does any of this make sense? I believe teachers who do this either have no idea how to get students under control, are too lazy to take the time to discipline the students who deserve it, or are very ill-informed that in the end, this doesn't work. Oh, might I mention it also fosters distrust on the part of ALL students? I would love to hear from teachers who can justify it under any circumstances.
i've been through 3 principals in my 8 years at my school and the current one DOES use the all or nothing method even on us as professionals. one screws up and the rest of us have to at minimal hear about and be lectured at length about it. in some situations group limitations were placed on us due to individual behavior.
now as a teacher myself i can safely say i've used the group punishment mentality i believe only once when i was student teaching 9 years ago haha.
as a coach though every team i've coached over the last years whether it was swimming, wrestling, football, track or baseball has felt the wrath of the group punishment in some way shape or form. in athletics i'll justify the use b/c part of athletics involves creating leadership and developing group skills. the purpose in an athletic setting is to get the group to either get the individual to conform or to get rid of the individual. ever seen Full Metal Jacket? (they used it perfectly in that movie....individual can't fall in line, whole platoon suffers until individual eventually becomes model marine......and then shoots his superior officer and himself haha). individual sports like swimming and track i haven't used it as much, team sports like baseball and even years ago when i coached football in college i used it b/c those are after all sports that REQUIRE a very high level of group work. not all on the same page then you're gonna fail fast and big time.
as a coach though every team i've coached over the last years whether it was swimming, wrestling, football, track or baseball has felt the wrath of the group punishment in some way shape or form. in athletics i'll justify the use b/c part of athletics involves creating leadership and developing group skills. the purpose in an athletic setting is to get the group to either get the individual to conform or to get rid of the individual. ever seen Full Metal Jacket? (they used it perfectly in that movie....individual can't fall in line, whole platoon suffers until individual eventually becomes model marine......and then shoots his superior officer and himself haha). individual sports like swimming and track i haven't used it as much, team sports like baseball and even years ago when i coached football in college i used it b/c those are after all sports that REQUIRE a very high level of group work. not all on the same page then you're gonna fail fast and big time.
Must be why so many kids (including me when I was a kid) hate sports and refuse to participate in them.
i've been through 3 principals in my 8 years at my school and the current one DOES use the all or nothing method even on us as professionals. one screws up and the rest of us have to at minimal hear about and be lectured at length about it. in some situations group limitations were placed on us due to individual behavior.
now as a teacher myself i can safely say i've used the group punishment mentality i believe only once when i was student teaching 9 years ago haha.
as a coach though every team i've coached over the last years whether it was swimming, wrestling, football, track or baseball has felt the wrath of the group punishment in some way shape or form. in athletics i'll justify the use b/c part of athletics involves creating leadership and developing group skills. the purpose in an athletic setting is to get the group to either get the individual to conform or to get rid of the individual. ever seen Full Metal Jacket? (they used it perfectly in that movie....individual can't fall in line, whole platoon suffers until individual eventually becomes model marine......and then shoots his superior officer and himself haha). individual sports like swimming and track i haven't used it as much, team sports like baseball and even years ago when i coached football in college i used it b/c those are after all sports that REQUIRE a very high level of group work. not all on the same page then you're gonna fail fast and big time.
The thing is that a class is not the same as a team. For starters, kids CHOOSE to be on sports teams but classes are the luck of the draw. In addition, a team is only as strong as its weakest link and all members need to share the goal of strengthening that link. In class I only need to be responsible for my learning, not everyone else's.
The thing is that a class is not the same as a team. For starters, kids CHOOSE to be on sports teams but classes are the luck of the draw. In addition, a team is only as strong as its weakest link and all members need to share the goal of strengthening that link. In class I only need to be responsible for my learning, not everyone else's.
Exactly. I am sorry but I have experienced very few experiences in life where i was punished for the behavior of others. The examples given previously are rare are aren't comparing apples to apples.
I worked in business for 7 years, and where and how I worked was my choice. If I had been punished for behavior of others more than once, I would have been gone. Do it once, shame on you. Do it twice, shame on me.
A parent losing a job? Unless you are referring to the parent making a bad choice that caused the job loss, that isn't the same as what we are talking about here. There are plenty of instances in life when things happen to us through no fault of our own, but unless bad behavior of another caused the consequence, it simply isn't the same. In my family, nobody has lost a job through bad choices of their own because I choose better, and I'm teaching my children to choose better.
Students learn all the time that sometimes, things happen through nobody's fault. I just had a student preparing for a big competition at state, and she couldn't go because she got tonsilitis.
Every other example I've read here talks about team activities, a choice students make. Students in a classroom simply don't have these choices....not a choice in going to school and not a choice what class of other students they are placed in.
I've been in the classroom for nearly 20 years. Very rarely has something happened when my back was turned and I didn't know who did it. I believe it is my responsibility to know what is going on inside the walls of my classroom, all the time. That's what they pay me for, and that's what my student's parents are counting on.
How is it anymore the luck of the draw than whatever clowns happen to get assigned to the same class as you?
If a group contingency in a high school class really makes some people not want to live in society, there's a LOT more going on that warrants attention. The fact that suffering a consequence due to the behavior of somebody else in your high school chemistry class might send some student into an epic, life-altering meltdown is EXACTLY the reason that basic life lessons, including "sometimes, things aren't fair" aren't bad to incorporate on occasion. "We all got in trouble in chemistry, even though I didn't dooooo anything," is definitely not something that a well-adjusted student should be having a sh*t hemorrhage over.
Yes, this has little to do with the classroom. It has a lot more to do with LIFE. You know, that thing out there for which school is supposed to be preparing you. Welcome to not existing in a vacuum.
Well, I am going to have a problem because the message I'm going to get is not "life isn't fair" but "why should I behave when someone else is going to mess it up for me anyway".
Exactly. I am sorry but I have experienced very few experiences in life where i was punished for the behavior of others. The examples given previously are rare are aren't comparing apples to apples.
I worked in business for 7 years, and where and how I worked was my choice. If I had been punished for behavior of others more than once, I would have been gone. Do it once, shame on you. Do it twice, shame on me.
A parent losing a job? Unless you are referring to the parent making a bad choice that caused the job loss, that isn't the same as what we are talking about here. There are plenty of instances in life when things happen to us through no fault of our own, but unless bad behavior of another caused the consequence, it simply isn't the same. In my family, nobody has lost a job through bad choices of their own because I choose better, and I'm teaching my children to choose better.
Students learn all the time that sometimes, things happen through nobody's fault. I just had a student preparing for a big competition at state, and she couldn't go because she got tonsilitis.
Every other example I've read here talks about team activities, a choice students make. Students in a classroom simply don't have these choices....not a choice in going to school and not a choice what class of other students they are placed in.
I've been in the classroom for nearly 20 years. Very rarely has something happened when my back was turned and I didn't know who did it. I believe it is my responsibility to know what is going on inside the walls of my classroom, all the time. That's what they pay me for, and that's what my student's parents are counting on.
This is what I have been trying to say. There is a difference between the team environment at work and the classroom environment. A team environment at work, by design, a team environment. Everyone has to pitch in, or the team suffers. Everyone has to contribute in order to get something done.
However, that doesn't mean justice shouldn't prevail for those who do their job. If a member of the team isn't living up to their job, get rid of that person, because that person has made the choice of ruining things.
A classroom environment is a bit different. It consists of individuals coming in for one reason or another. Children can't really help if a few trouble makers decide to make trouble. Sometimes the trouble makers won't listen to anyone. No reason the rest of the class should suffer the consequences of someone else's actions, especially if the rest of the class is doing the right thing.
Stuff happens through no fault of our own. I understand. However, there is no reason why a person shouldn't be rewarded for doing what is right.
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