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Old 02-19-2012, 05:32 PM
 
634 posts, read 1,346,614 times
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I know this topic has been addressed in these forums before, but I continue to encounter teachers who discipline large groups of students for the poor choices of a few. I will AGAIN ask teachers to please do their jobs and NOT use this ineffective practice, and I will give you perspective as a teacher and parent.

Twice last week, my daughter was disciplined for the behavior of other students. In one case, two students woudn't quit messing around during student work time on a very important project where students were preparing for a state competition. The teacher stopped ALL students, told them they couldn't use the time to prepare their projects, that they ALL would have to do it on their own time and gave them busy bookwork (lengthy handout). When some students asked why all students were being penalized, the teacher got upset and said "because Tommy and Johny couldn't behave, so maybe all of you will learn to behave". Huh?

A 2nd time, two students were talking during a teacher lecture. The teacher kept ALL students after class, making them tardy to their next class. In our school, students are disciplined for every tardy. Again, students politely asked why all of them, and she said they rise and fall as a group. Again, huh?

As a classroom teacher myself, I tried this approach years ago. But polite parents pointed out that it isn't the job of fellow students to keep other students in line. She also pointed out that adults in the workplace are rarely penalized for the ill-behavior of others, and she is right. I've never been disciplined at work for the behavior of other teachers. I also learned that my well-behaving students started to NOT behave. When I asked them what was up, they told me that even though they behaved, they still got in trouble. In fact, the students who didn't behave felt more powerful because their choices got other students in trouble.

Does any of this make sense? I believe teachers who do this either have no idea how to get students under control, are too lazy to take the time to discipline the students who deserve it, or are very ill-informed that in the end, this doesn't work. Oh, might I mention it also fosters distrust on the part of ALL students? I would love to hear from teachers who can justify it under any circumstances.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,712 posts, read 3,046,979 times
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There are times to discipline the individual, and there are times when it is beneficial to encourage positive peer pressure by disciplining the entirety.

Has the teacher always used this method?

What other methods has the teacher employed?
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:44 PM
 
634 posts, read 1,346,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_hug99 View Post
There are times to discipline the individual, and there are times when it is beneficial to encourage positive peer pressure by disciplining the entirety.
I understand peer pressure, but the students who usually behave badly are often the strong, bully-type and I personally don't believe it is the job of fellow students (especially if they are NOT strong, bully-type) to get other kids in line. I use positive peer pressure in my classroom all the time; I do it without disciplining students who don't deserve it.

I would love to hear an honest perspective. Please describe a situation when it is appropriate to "discipline the entirety"....including those who didn't behave badly. And I'm not being sarcastic; I am genuinely and honestly at a complete loss for understanding a situation when this is ever appropriate or effective.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:06 AM
 
8,240 posts, read 15,245,319 times
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I think that there are times, such as loud talking in a hall, where it's impossible to distinguish who is doing the talking. In that case, I think it hurts no one to have a silent passing period for a day or two. In mind, everyone has been loud in the hall at least once, and they may have not been 'caught'. I don't see a problem with it. Typical snowflake issue.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:14 AM
 
11,636 posts, read 20,435,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
Typical snowflake issue.
No-it's not a snowflake issue at all. Students should be held accountable for their actions. NOT the actions of others. NOT what their actions might have been, but for their actual actions.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:19 AM
 
8,240 posts, read 15,245,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
No-it's not a snowflake issue at all. Students should be held accountable for their actions. NOT the actions of others. NOT what their actions might have been, but for their actual actions.
Of course it's a snowflake issue. How on earth is a child harmed by having a silent passing period? This kind of complaint is what ties the hands of teachers and keeps teachers from disciplining and keeping order in schools.

Group punishment is alive and well in our society. Let's take gun laws, for example. The vast majority of people handle guns safely and responsibly. There is a small group of the population who don't. Our gun laws and background checks target ALL gun purchasers because of that small minority. I can't walk into the drugstore to buy cold medicine over the counter, I have to show ID. Why? Because some people use the cold medicine to 'cook' crystal meth.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:27 AM
 
11,636 posts, read 20,435,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
Of course it's a snowflake issue. How on earth is a child harmed by having a silent passing period?
So is that the standard now? As long as nobody is harmed teachers can do as they like regardless of whether they are right or wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
This kind of complaint is what ties the hands of teachers and keeps teachers from disciplining and keeping order in schools.
As someone who has spent time in classrooms I have to say this is one of the more ridiculous statements I have heard. Punishing everyone for the transgressions of a few ensures that nobody will have an incentive to behave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
Group punishment is alive and well in our society. Let's take gun laws, for example. The vast majority of people handle guns safely and responsibly. There is a small group of the population who don't. Our gun laws and background checks target ALL gun purchasers because of that small minority. I can't walk into the drugstore to buy cold medicine over the counter, I have to show ID. Why? Because some people use the cold medicine to 'cook' crystal meth.
Having to comply with registration requirements and show id to purchase cold medication is hardly a punishment.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,012 posts, read 1,162,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
Of course it's a snowflake issue. How on earth is a child harmed by having a silent passing period? This kind of complaint is what ties the hands of teachers and keeps teachers from disciplining and keeping order in schools.

Group punishment is alive and well in our society. Let's take gun laws, for example. The vast majority of people handle guns safely and responsibly. There is a small group of the population who don't. Our gun laws and background checks target ALL gun purchasers because of that small minority. I can't walk into the drugstore to buy cold medicine over the counter, I have to show ID. Why? Because some people use the cold medicine to 'cook' crystal meth.
Very good point. Sometimes you have to set an example too. By discipling all the students, the teacher is showing them what happens when even a few mess around.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,728,311 times
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I have classes where I cannot give work time because too many students will abuse the time. It is what it is. There's nothing I can do to make the students who don't use the time to work use the time to work. They are not motivated by lower grades and calling home is, rarely, effective. So, I just don't give work time. My good students will do the work on their time. The students who don't work still won't work BUT using the class time for additional lecture or examples means that, at least, they've seen someone else do the problems. Who knows. Maybe they'll learn something by osmosis.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:50 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,647 posts, read 74,595,623 times
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this sounds a bit like, u can discipline those other kids but not my baby. bottom line. any attempt by teachers and admin to discipline students in any form will not be supported & will be met with parental and legal actions. that is why k12 is doomed and that voucher will eventually take it over. w/o discipline there is no learning.
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