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Old 06-07-2012, 02:38 AM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,417,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
Syracusa,
You are a very competitive person, and that is why you want to know what academic rank your son holds.
Zimbochick,

You would be surprised to know me in reality, but I am the type who despises competition. I truly believe the saying that "competition gives the best in products and the worst in relationships". At the same time, I am also aware that I do not have the luxury to ignore/shrug off this thing I despise.

If some parents believe the insane competitiveness of today's world is irrelevant to them, then it is their prerogative to act as if it doesn't exist or as if it will never affect their children (it will).

So the reason for wanting to know how my child stacks up is not because I am just a "bad" (as in "you are competitive!") person.
I am simply concerned about my children's future.
Like I said, my son tends to be a lazy child who has also been suspected of some developmental disorders (first Aspergers, now this has largely been ruled out, and we are now expecting ADHD upon his re-evaluation in August).
As a mother, I know that if I am not there to guide him and help him keep up with many competitive, naturally hard working, focused, and driven (more often docile and parent-driven!) children out there, he will eventually be "eaten alive". This is a given.

Other parents have different types of children and everyone chooses to raise theirs how they see fit, with their best interest in mind.
I know my child the best, I know his weaknesses and strengths, and I also know the size of our bank accounts and how likely we will be to pay for their education with ease (not). So yes, we would prefer scholarships (he certainly has the required intelligence to get one) and yes, I do believe that a child's academic future often stays positive if it starts on a positive note.

To say that it is absolutely irrelevant how the child develops in K because it is so early ...is simply no longer true.
Not when they ask K kids to figure out problems such as "how would you pay 83 cents with the least number of coins at the store?".

Last edited by syracusa; 06-07-2012 at 02:50 AM..
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
The arms race?

No.

The arms race was, at times, a matter of life and death. Cuban Missile Crisis. Nuclear tipped Atlas rockets.

This is kindergarten.
It was a metaphor, right?.
And K doesn't stay K. It continues, it gets bigger and it's all like a chain reaction.
By the time the child reaches college admissions, it really does become almost a matter of "life and death".
Right now I know several great children of highly successful professionals who graduated recently and are now back home because they absolutely can't find a job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
(BTW that achievement is usually because of the CHILD and not because he has a parent anxious to know how he measures up when he's five. Hint. Hint. Wink. Wink.)
Respectfully disagree. All parents of young people I know who ended up doing well - STAYED ON THEM. And the parents admitted it themselves.
You are overplaying the "nature" card and underplaying the "nurture" here.
I simply don't agree with your theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
You can't see the flower that is in front of you because you are so worried about the fertilizer.
I can certainly see the flower and I would not dare leave it without fertilizer.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:47 AM
 
Location: here
24,873 posts, read 36,072,590 times
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If you volunteer in the class, you should have at least a vague idea of how the rest of the class performs. That should be enough.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:11 AM
 
13,240 posts, read 9,849,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
I have looked at your theory with good will and have found some holes in it. Here is my view: what teachers think it is relevant to my child is important - but the parent should also have a say here. I simply believe they should not be left in the dark about comparative information.
To pretend that competitiveness doesn't matter in a world that has turned completely "survival of the fittest" is highly hypocritical and anxiety-producing for most parents, whether they like to admit it or not.
They've already told you what they think. And obviously at this stage, they don't think it's relevant to rate your kid in the class based on other children's acheivements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
I disagree that if children CAN naturally reach a certain level at a certain age, they will do it on their own regardless, with or without parental input.
Where did I say that? I said that giving you the info that other kids are "several grades above kindergarten level" could prompt you to put undue pressure on your child to measure up. Am I wrong? What would you do in the unlikely event that "several" kids are reading grade levels above your child? I didn't say anywhere at all that kids require NO parental input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Many parents today simply require/guide, some of them even force, their children to accelerate or to enrich materials studied in school.
Moreover, not all of us have self-motivating children, excited about skipping 3 grades ahead academically - all on their own, while mama cooks in the kitchen.
That doesn't mean they don't have the capability to do just so, if doing so becomes important. Such children will need to be guided and motivated by the parent at home.
Nowhere did I say parents shouldn't guide or motivate their children. But you're talking about 3 grades ahead in KINDERGARTEN. Children develop at different paces at this young age, if you put all sorts of pressure on your child above normal guidance and motivating, you could kill their natural desire to learn. It's excessive pushing I'm talking about.

Again, if you had this information, what would be the net result?

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
I know mine does because he is a capable but VERY lazy child.
I taught him how to read and I know for a fact that had I not put in the work that I did with him, he would NOT have performed as well in K as he did with reading.

In reality, he is NOT motivated to read, and based on what I saw they did in school this year, he would have been miles behind with reading had I relied strictly on what is done at school and the "state standards".
Well then, if you're doing what you need to do for your child - what difference does it make if there's a couple of reading prodigies in the kindergarten class? There are some kids that excel at reading at an early age, but they mostly always get caught up to by their peers in later school years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
About his reading, his teacher told me "I don't know what you're doing, but keep doing what you're doing, it works well".

Right. What I am doing is not pretending K is still a pastoral dream. That's all.
Okay. What I think you're doing is burning up with the need for your kid to be proclaimed best and brightest. Which is not necessary for a 6 year old, no matter how much you profess it to be so, because of competition he may face in the adult world.

If you personally want him to excel more in his academics, then why can't you just pursue that without the knowledge of how he ranks competitively with other children, who are all over the map developmentally wise?

Why don't you just go ahead and do it? It's like YOU need some kind of validation.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:51 AM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,054,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
I simply don't agree with your theory.
That's fair. I don't agree with your's.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:03 AM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,417,416 times
Reputation: 3899
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Why don't you just go ahead and do it? It's like YOU need some kind of validation
Finster,

Again, I did expect people here to NOT agree with me and to critique my philosophy - given contemporary educational ideology about competitiveness at times when competition itself is at its most ferocious and most divisive among humans.

Given this climate, I continue to believe it is both harmful and hypocritical to keep the parent in the dark about how their child stacks up. Period.
I was hoping there was a decent way to obtain such information - be it considered "non-kosher" - from the school, in strict confidentiality.

Apparently it isn't. Oh, well.
I will certainly continue to do what I have been doing with my son so far, which pretty much is "staying on him academically" to compensate for his general lack of self-motivation...and I will continue to do so as long as results are very good. They have been so far.

You asked what I would do if I knew quite a few children are way ahead of their grade in a variety of skills when my child merely "meets state standards"?
I would draw the conclusion that those are the REAL standards the cut-throat free market has established and I would work with my son to get him there as well - given he DOES have such abilities, just not the self-motivation.

I am someone who learned her ABC-s at the age of 7 (and continued to be a highly self-motivated child from there...parents never checked my homework, just demanded stellar report cards). Today I am raising children in a world where 3 yo-s are EASILY expected to know their ABC-s.

The market has changed the standards even though objectively speaking, they ARE insane. But can I pretend that this doesn't matter and just leave my kids to their own devices?
Reality is most children are not interested in spending their precious childhood time playing with letters, numbers, or brain-twisters.
Yet, another reality is that this generation has been coached, coxed, "gently guided" or what have you to do just that; to the point where if your 3 yo doesn't know her ABC perfectly, she will not be considered quite up to the task...and if your 4 yo is not already starting to read...same thing.

I didn't ask people to agree with the philosophy behind my question.
I just asked whether there is any OK way to obtain the information I am seeking from the school.

No, I do not need my child to be proclaimed "the best and the brightest". In reality, I know how "bright" or "not bright" he actually is given 1) I know him very well 2) he was tested by a psychologist with a valid instrument who confirmed my beliefs. Neurologically he has some huge strengths as well as some very serious weaknesses ...and this is that.
As for "proclamations", even if he actually was proclaimed by his teacher to be such a thing, I would go out of my way to make sure this type of information remains strictly confidential. As much as you would love to demonstrate that I am just in search of glory, you will not be able to prove this absurdity.

I DO, however, need to know how he is performing in comparison to others so I can get him as close as possible to the standards the market considers "excellent".
At the end of the day, every program that matters, every scholarship committee, every admission officer throughout his entire academic career, and later on the job market...all of these individuals will not ask about his "uniqueness", or his personal developmental pace.

They will want to see the dough - that is, how he actually performs IN RELATION to others. So they'll know whether they'll pick him - or others.

If this is what all these people are interested in, why is it so bad for a mother to want to have the same information?
And since when should "authorities" have the right to decide how much "pressure" should a parent put (or not put) on her child??
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:08 AM
 
11,642 posts, read 23,838,003 times
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I have said this before but it bears repeating: School is a marathon, not a sprint. The leaders in K are not necessarily the leaders when the kids graduate from HS. It is important that your child does well in K because K lays the foundation for later learning. However, being the top student in K does not have anything to do with being the top student in HS, which is when student compete for university admission.

My oldest son did not read when he entered K. He did not begin reading until Thanksgiving of 1st grade. However, he graduated HS in the top 5% of his class. He received an academic scholarship to a top 50 university. Many of the so called top students in his first grade class did not get accepted to our state flagship. Nobody cared that they were the top reader in 1st grade. It made absolutely no difference. When the school work gets to the point that parents cannot do it for the kids the truly exceptional kids separate themselves from the crowd. You cannot "get a jump" on that process.

I understand your need to know how your child is doing. However, I would worry more about your child doing well compared to what he is expected to do in 1st grade rather than how he is doing compared to other students.

Remember that university admission is the goal, not 1st grade.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,376,368 times
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Quote:
I can certainly see the flower and I would not dare leave it without fertilizer
I don't think lack of fertilizer will be a problem here.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:32 AM
 
13,240 posts, read 9,849,560 times
Reputation: 14286
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Finster,

Again, I did expect people here to NOT agree with me and to critique my philosophy - given contemporary educational ideology about competitiveness at times when competition itself is at its most ferocious and most divisive among humans.

Given this climate, I continue to believe it is both harmful and hypocritical to keep the parent in the dark about how their child stacks up. Period.
I was hoping there was a decent way to obtain such information - be it considered "non-kosher" - from the school, in strict confidentiality.

Apparently it isn't. Oh, well.
I will certainly continue to do what I have been doing with my son so far, which pretty much is "staying on him academically" to compensate for his general lack of self-motivation...and I will continue to do so as long as results are very good. They have been so far.

You asked what I would do if I knew quite a few children are way ahead of their grade in a variety of skills when my child merely "meets state standards"?
I would draw the conclusion that those are the REAL standards the cut-throat free market has established and I would work with my son to get him there as well - given he DOES have such abilities, just not the self-motivation.

I am someone who learned her ABC-s at the age of 7 (and continued to be a highly self-motivated child from there...parents never checked my homework, just demanded stellar report cards). Today I am raising children in a world where 3 yo-s are EASILY expected to know their ABC-s.

The market has changed the standards even though objectively speaking, they ARE insane. But can I pretend that this doesn't matter and just leave my kids to their own devices?
Reality is most children are not interested in spending their precious childhood time playing with letters, numbers, or brain-twisters.
Yet, another reality is that this generation has been coached, coxed, "gently guided" or what have you to do just that; to the point where if your 3 yo doesn't know her ABC perfectly, she will not be considered quite up to the task...and if your 4 yo is not already starting to read...same thing.

I didn't ask people to agree with the philosophy behind my question.
I just asked whether there is any OK way to obtain the information I am seeking from the school.

No, I do not need my child to be proclaimed "the best and the brightest". In reality, I know how "bright" or "not bright" he actually is given 1) I know him very well 2) he was tested by a psychologist with a valid instrument who confirmed my beliefs. Neurologically he has some huge strengths as well as some very serious weaknesses ...and this is that.
As for "proclamations", even if he actually was proclaimed by his teacher to be such a thing, I would go out of my way to make sure this type of information remains strictly confidential. As much as you would love to demonstrate that I am just in search of glory, you will not be able to prove this absurdity.

I DO, however, need to know how he is performing in comparison to others so I can get him as close as possible to the standards the market considers "excellent".
At the end of the day, every program that matters, every scholarship committee, every admission officer throughout his entire academic career, and later on the job market...all of these individuals will not ask about his "uniqueness", or his personal developmental pace.

They will want to see the dough - that is, how he actually performs IN RELATION to others. So they'll know whether they'll pick him - or others.

If this is what all these people are interested in, why is it so bad for a mother to want to have the same information?
And since when should "authorities" have the right to decide how much "pressure" should a parent put (or not put) on her child??
I don't care what you did and didn't "ask". In a conversation, things come up that you might not intend, doesn't mean I can't discuss it.

You are missing the point - that in KINDERGARTEN, how well he's doing in comparison to others in not a criteria by which to judge how competitive he's going to be out in the job market or for a scholarship. There are plenty of ways for them to asses that when the time comes - but they aren't going to check his KINDERGARTEN stats.

There is NO MARKET for kindergartners.

The authorities are not "deciding" - you still have total choice over whether and how much pressure you put on your child. They just aren't giving you other students as a benchmark by which to do it.

Are you really trying to say that someone of your intellect can't figure out how he stacks up for a six year old? Really? Are you telling me that you're only doing what you need to do with him to stay motivated, but if you find out he's not 3 grades ahead like the others, you'll put more pressure on? If the results of what you are doing are already "very good" - then what difference is it going to make?

I'll wager everything I have that you are already doing everything you can to push him academically. So the question of where other children stand is moot as far as your actions go, and is really a want to satisfy your need to have a child that is superior to the others.

This is about your competition Jones, not about your son's scholarships or marketability. Sometimes people on the outside can see what you can't, because you'll justify what you want in any way you can.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Philaburbia
41,790 posts, read 74,825,163 times
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The teacher probably didn't want parents whining about their kid not getting a trophy, or parents demanding to know how the trophies were decided upon, or parents complaining about how the teacher doesn't tell the parents every teeny detail of their precious Junior's school day, or parents showing up without being invited to make Junior the star of their Facebook page.

And I can't say as I blame the teacher. The teacher probably just wanted the kids to enjoy themselves without parents helicoptering over them for once.
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