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Old 12-01-2014, 04:05 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,103 posts, read 16,056,602 times
Reputation: 28275

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiMT View Post
Of course, as someone who cares about research, you know that standardized tests mostly represent socioeconomic status, not very much about the teachers.

I purposefully withhold most personal details from this forum so that I cannot be attacked by ad hominems. As I stated previously, it literally does not matter how many years of experience I have, as that alone does not prove anything. I am willing to state (already have in many threads actually) that my statements are strongly geared to the high school level, as that is, by far, my level of familiarity. That doesn't mean my ideas can't apply in some way to other levels, it just means that they would have to be more carefully adapted -- and more people with various developmental understandings brought into the conversation.
Yes, I do know that. But if your students score a higher percentage on nationally normed tests than those exact same students score in their other subjects, and your subject is always the one the vast majority of those kids score their highest percentage, you can take credit for it. This is especially true if it has occurred at multiple schools, including schools with a high percentage of high risk students. So, let's not go there.

I asked about your experience, which if you have taught high school saying so would hardly identify you among the thousands upon thousands of other high school teachers, because I wonder if you are giving your students that 15 minute break between classes and at what level you are doing this.

When I taught teacher education at a university I used to just bust up at some of the unrealistic ideas those professors who never actually taught in a public school, or did so for only a year or two, would come up with. There are many things that in theory sound good, or make sense when dealing with specific populations, that would result in chaos in a real average classroom, let alone one in a high risk school.
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:31 PM
 
1,242 posts, read 1,682,876 times
Reputation: 3658
Just because someone isn't a teacher, doesn't mean thier opinions aren't valid or they don't have merit. Similarly - it doesn't matter what grade someone is teaching - just because an opinion doesn't work in your circumstance doesn't mean it won't work in another. It's these belittling, dismissive and elitist attitudes that really **** me off. How can someone be a good teacher that fosters learning if they aren't open to ideas and willing to look at other possibilities?
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:20 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,103 posts, read 16,056,602 times
Reputation: 28275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eazine View Post
Just because someone isn't a teacher, doesn't mean thier opinions aren't valid or they don't have merit. Similarly - it doesn't matter what grade someone is teaching - just because an opinion doesn't work in your circumstance doesn't mean it won't work in another. It's these belittling, dismissive and elitist attitudes that really **** me off. How can someone be a good teacher that fosters learning if they aren't open to ideas and willing to look at other possibilities?
That's all good and fine but ignoring and/or dismissing the experiences of those who are actually charged with implementing these policies is shortsighted. I imagine many of our teachers who came into teaching later in life as a second career, after experiencing education only from a parent's view, will tell you they rather quickly changed their mind about some of the things they believed could/should be done in the classroom once they were the ones responsible. And yes, the same thing happens when a teacher is suddenly sitting on the parent side of the table at a parent-teacher conference. It is a two way street, you know.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,374,009 times
Reputation: 41122
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
I think if a teacher is having an issue with numerous students abusing bathroom breaks, the teacher might want to consider what else is going on, and why in her class. Using the restroom is a norml function; having a difficult student or two goes with the territory; having consistent problems with numerous students indicates a classroom management problem or a teacher who for some reason isn't engaging the students. JMO of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
This really was not a big issue when I taught. I had the standard not during first/last 10 minutes or during direct instruction and it should be an emergency. But, for whatever reason, kids generally didn't even ask. I will say, they sure did whenever I had a sub. At my last school they also had three teachers' classes that they "had" to use the bathroom during - regardless of what period it .

Bingo...my point exactly. There will always be "a few" kids who push the limit in any class. If a teacher is having continual issues with a significant number of kids, it speaks of an issue with the teacher. He or she is not engaging and/or has classroom management issues.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,280 posts, read 6,067,105 times
Reputation: 3924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I was answering the charge that our kids need a 15 minute passing time so they can socialize.

Personally, I don't allow my students to line up at the door but I can tell you that most use "work" time as social time. I can't make them work. I'd cut out work time altogether if I thought teaching the entire hour would do any good. Kids can handle about 25 minutes of lecture before they tune it out. Unfortunately, they do not use the remaining class time well.

In my school, a lack of stalls is not the issue. I've gone and stood in the bathroom during passing time and there is never a line. I don't recall there being lines when I was in school and I went to a HUGE high school. If you stand in the halls it becomes apparent that the issue is that passing time is used as social time in my school...in addition to most of "work" time. Procrastination seems to reign at my school.
There's not a line now because they aren't using the restroom during passing periods. If all students did use them during passing periods, there most definitely would be a line. I'm not going to touch the rest of your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Yes, I remember getting the look from a teacher if we started collecting books or getting ready to leave before the bell rang. You (and I) went to school with a lot of new immigrants and students from working class families. Obviously things are different with higher SES students. And their teachers.


Either that or they have drastically changed in the 10 years since I graduated. This honestly was not an issue. There was also no socializing during class. No teacher (even the "cool" one) would ever have allowed that.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:04 PM
 
425 posts, read 429,146 times
Reputation: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
I asked about your experience, which if you have taught high school saying so would hardly identify you among the thousands upon thousands of other high school teachers,
That's why I have stated it a few times.
The reason I don't post more details is because no matter who I am or what my experience is, some would find ways to attack me instead of my arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
because I wonder if you are giving your students that 15 minute break between classes and at what level you are doing this.
I allow students more time to settle into class than most teachers. It's not just that, though -- my classroom environment as a whole is less rigid. Learning is not compromised because of this. If anything, learning is improved, along with student attitudes. Students in my classes tend to be more responsible and respectful, because I am not constantly on them about every little thing (like many teachers are). If a student needs to go to the bathroom, they can go. I treat them like adults, and for the very most part, they rise to my positive belief in them.

Am I (or is my classroom) perfect? Of course not, perfect is not my goal. Perfection is pretty much a red herring. We have to set priorities and weigh policies against each other, because none of them will be perfect all the time at everything we want them to be. But I'd never go back to what I was "taught" (and what I'm constantly told) by people who really don't have the depth of insight they think they do in education and human psychology. And "we just have to do it that way even if it doesn't make sense" was never a good excuse in my book.

I would, obviously, gladly endorse a change in policy at a larger scale that allows students more time between class. I don't think it should just be changed instantly -- it should be a gradual change, allowing all of us (students, teachers, parents, admins) to figure out how to do it properly.
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Old 12-02-2014, 06:12 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,103 posts, read 16,056,602 times
Reputation: 28275
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiMT View Post
That's why I have stated it a few times.
The reason I don't post more details is because no matter who I am or what my experience is, some would find ways to attack me instead of my arguments.



I allow students more time to settle into class than most teachers. It's not just that, though -- my classroom environment as a whole is less rigid. Learning is not compromised because of this. If anything, learning is improved, along with student attitudes. Students in my classes tend to be more responsible and respectful, because I am not constantly on them about every little thing (like many teachers are). If a student needs to go to the bathroom, they can go. I treat them like adults, and for the very most part, they rise to my positive belief in them.

Am I (or is my classroom) perfect? Of course not, perfect is not my goal. Perfection is pretty much a red herring. We have to set priorities and weigh policies against each other, because none of them will be perfect all the time at everything we want them to be. But I'd never go back to what I was "taught" (and what I'm constantly told) by people who really don't have the depth of insight they think they do in education and human psychology. And "we just have to do it that way even if it doesn't make sense" was never a good excuse in my book.

I would, obviously, gladly endorse a change in policy at a larger scale that allows students more time between class. I don't think it should just be changed instantly -- it should be a gradual change, allowing all of us (students, teachers, parents, admins) to figure out how to do it properly.
I'm glad that works for you in your classroom, in your school. I think the difference here is that to me having limited time between classes and keeping during class bathroom time limited does make sense - it isn't a matter of "we just have to do it that way." It is all about keeping behavior problems to a minimum and class time focused. I have come to that conclusion from what I have seen and experienced myself as to what works in my classroom, not because I am unwilling to give consideration to other viewpoints.

For individual teachers "because my principal said so" is a very valid reason to enforce such rules, to do otherwise is to risk their jobs. It is not about a powertrip but survival, and I think that accusation aimed at teachers from a fellow educator is what raised my hackles so much. Those who work in education ought to understand there is a difference between trying to maintain control and being on a powertrip.

Like I said, if that works for you, I am glad you have arrived at that solution. It doesn't mean it would work in all, or even most, classrooms or schools.

And I've got you tell you, on a personal level I would love 15 minutes between classes. The kids aren't the only ones who are rushed to take care of business that needs to be done between classes in a limited time period. But, at least at the middle schools where I have worked, idle time is an invitation for trouble.
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When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.Moderator - Diabetes and Kentucky (including Lexington & Louisville)
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:27 AM
 
36 posts, read 27,742 times
Reputation: 50
That's not right to disallow the kids to go to the bathroom. I agree with captainhug, giving the children pee first before class
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,435,945 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
That's all good and fine but ignoring and/or dismissing the experiences of those who are actually charged with implementing these policies is shortsighted. I imagine many of our teachers who came into teaching later in life as a second career, after experiencing education only from a parent's view, will tell you they rather quickly changed their mind about some of the things they believed could/should be done in the classroom once they were the ones responsible. And yes, the same thing happens when a teacher is suddenly sitting on the parent side of the table at a parent-teacher conference. It is a two way street, you know.
Actually teaching does change your perspective. 8 years ago I would have said that teachers should not limit bathroom passes. Today I sing a different tune. When I'm the one who gets into hot water if my students are wandering the hall, I'm leery of letting them out of the room. I know for a fact it takes about 2 minues to walk to the bathroom from my room, pee, wash your hands and walk back. The teacher's bathroom is right next to the student bathrooms and I do it when I need to pee during passing time with plenty of time to spare yet when I let students out of the room to use the bathroom it takes them 5-10 minutes to find their way back to class. I had one just the other day who said he was walking around with a friend when a student who was waiting for him to return with the pass asked why he was gone so long. The problem is kids lie just to get out of the room and don't go where they tell you they're going.
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,435,945 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13 View Post
There's not a line now because they aren't using the restroom during passing periods. If all students did use them during passing periods, there most definitely would be a line. I'm not going to touch the rest of your post.





Either that or they have drastically changed in the 10 years since I graduated. This honestly was not an issue. There was also no socializing during class. No teacher (even the "cool" one) would ever have allowed that.
The point is their excuse is they don't have time to go during passing time and that is a bold faced lie. They are choosing not to go during passing time. Maybe you're right and there would be a line if they did use the bathroom during passing time but there isn't one right now so I know the students who are asking to leave as soon as the bell rings could have gone during passing time had they chosen to do so. It simply was not important enough for them to do during passing time.

I'm a teacher. I don't get bathroom passes. I have to go during passing time or wait until lunch or my prep. The teacher bathroom is a one seater so there's a line if someone is in there. Guess what? I still make it back to class before the bell rings. It just doesn't take that long to pee and in my case, the bathrooms are very close to my room.
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