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Old 04-02-2013, 02:25 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
Reputation: 19651

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
You cannot compare *your* public school to the normal public school though. Your school has a specialized program and most public school students would also be behind the students you have in your school, it seems to me. Your school is selective, right?
I am not. What I said and continued to say is that based ON MY EXPERIENCE the majority our homeschooled students are below the average of the rest of the students at my school when it comes to skills and content knowledge.

The only reason why I mentioned what is or is not at my school is because someone said they only reason a homeschooled student would go to any public schools is if they were unable to homeschool. That is not the case. Many homeschooled students apply to my district because they know that it is a unique environment.

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How many kids homeschooled *or* public schooled or even private schooled want a program in marine biology or marine physics? Not many I wager.
Every year we have 400-500 applicants for 75-80 spots.

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I admit that having a homeschooler who passed the exam to get into your school who did not know about atoms sounds a bit odd.
Our entrance exam consists of math and english only. We do not test their content knowledge or skill set in science or any other subject.

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You will have to note that most parents who homeschool do not expect to teach all subjects except perhaps in the elementary grades. They use others who have knowledge or they have the students take online classes or community college classes once they are older.
Thats great. I never said otherwise.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:48 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
I gave no definition. I said "for whatever reason." How was I proven wrong? When you decide to homeschool, you're not committing for life, any more than sending your kid to a public school or private school is committing for life. Generally, people who are happy with their kids' schooling are not going to change it if they can help it. People switch schools and schooling situations all the time... because the original situation is no longer working. If it were working, and it was the best option, then they wouldn't switch.
LOL!

That is why people go to college because "high school is no longer working". That is why they go to medical school, because college "is no longer working".

Around here, kids go to high school because they are finished with elementary school, not because its "no longer working".




Well, I guess no one in the world can have the exact same experiences as my kids in our homeschool, so their experiences are also unique. And actually, no one in my district or in my state can get your school's unique experiences, either. So I guess you win on all counts there.




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All content? Or just the content that your particular students have already been taught? You do realize that anyone can learn what your students are learning, right? Even if they don't go to your particular school? They might not know it today, but they can learn it if they want to or need to. I'm perfectly fine with you saying that homeschooled kids don't have the knowledge of the content that your students have been learning for the past 12 years. They simply have learned other content and focused on different things.
Twelve years? My entire district is only high school. You make all of these bizarre assumptions. Our students come from all over the state from numerous districts.

As for the bolded part I will say it again, UNIQUE. Do you know what the word means or are you making assumptions, again. There are multiple ways that it is not possible to replicate our program and even the things we are learning, this is especially true of our research program.


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I'm sorry, I actually thought (due to my message board experiences) that it was a given that the anecdotes given here are always "in my experience" and "in my opinion." I could go through and write that in front of every sentence, but in my opinion, that would be redundant.
You should reread the paragraph above because you INSIST upon speaking for all of my students as well as every homeschooler out there. You keep throwing around stats that you make up. Maybe its just my public education showing here, but making up numbers of entire groups and then calling them "anecdotes" is not congruent.

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I have no idea. Are we comparing all homeschooled kids with all public schooled kids, or all homeschooled kids with your particular gifted students?
What we were comparing was the population of above average homeschoolers with above average public educated students who have gotten into my school. No more, no less.

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If it's the former, my guess is that it's fairly equal. If it's the latter, then you're comparing apples to oranges. Not all homeschooled students are gifted or college bound, any more than all public school students are gifted or college bound. But yes, when compared with public school students in general, homeschooled students do well on tests like the SATs and ACTs, and yes, they do get college scholarships. Here's some info on that topic: HSLDA | Homeschooled Students Excel in College
Who cares? I never stated anywhere homeschool students don't go to college and don't get scholarships. The fact that you keep trying to set up an endless series of logical fallacies, mostly strawmen but the occasional moving of the goal posts, is incredibly telling about your "point".

None of it disproves my original statement.

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In the sample of homeschoolers that I know personally, which span over a couple hundred families in several states, most do not sit and do all of their learning at the kitchen table throughout middle and high school. One of the first pieces of advice that homeschooling parents hear from other homeschooling parents in support groups and on message boards is, "Use the whole world as your classroom! Homeschooling does not mean that you must teach all classes in the home." In my experience, of course. I suppose that they could all be total outliers and that the twenty students you know that have come from one district and who are pursuing a gifted school are more representative of the nation as a whole. Did all 20 tell you that that is how they learned, or is that just the mental picture that you have when you hear the word, "homeschooling"?
The fact that you think "knowing" 200 students is the same thing as teaching them for 270+ hours makes the entire paragraph pointless. Who cares who you know? What does that prove about their knowledge or skill set?

Lets deal with some actual numbers. I was at a science symposium with the teacher in my district who also handles the admission for one of our schools. When I asked him how many homeschooled student he had he was able to actually show me data. Their school averages a 1 in 5 acceptance rate of public schools (their school is more competitive than mine since it is in the top 10 in the country) over the last 10 years. For homeschoolers who apply the likelihood of getting in has been less than 1 in 10. I was surprised, I assumed it was the same rate as all students. So I asked him about the acceptance rate for private school students (another smallish subset), theirs was actually 1 in 3.

Again, the entrance exam just tests math and english school.


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I, along with 99.99% of homeschoolers in the nation, do not live in your district and cannot attend your school anyway, so this is a moot point.
It still doesn't mean my experience is not valid.


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You are absolutely allowed to have your opinion based on the 20 homeschoolers that you have met over the past decade. And I am allowed to have my opinion based on the hundred or two homeschoolers that I have met in person over the past decade, as well as the others that I've corresponded with on message boards. We both obviously have our biases.
Except one of us has taught 20+ high school students advanced (college) level sciences and the other has not. Which one has a more informed opinion of the skill set and knowledge base of home schoolers than?

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You have no idea that you know things that I don't know, and that I know things that you don't know? Or that each of the homeschooled students that you have met knows something that one of your gifted students doesn't know? I'm pretty sure that you could apply that to any two people in the world. In my opinion and experience no two people know everything about everything. Everybody is good at something. These are truths that we teach very little children. I don't need to preface that with, "in my opinion," because it's something that everyone recognizes.
LOL. Except you state your opinion as a fact and even include made up percentages!


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Except that you don't work in a regular public school, you work in a school for the gifted. So you're comparing the twenty homeschoolers that you know with kids who have been in the system for X number of years (so they have been taught what your district deems important content)
Why do you just make things up? The kids who apply to our school are not taught anything WE deem important. You do understand that EVERYONE applies to this school right? That is what an academy is.

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AND who are gifted. And your experience is extremely limited. It would be like me saying, "In my experience, half the trees that people have in their yards are palm trees." Then when you come and point out, "you live in Florida. Palm trees don't grow in New Jersey," I say, "why are you disregarding my EXPERIENCE? I walked around my block and counted the trees in 20 yards! Half are palm trees!" We both know that that statement is ridiculous, but I'm insisting that my limited experience is telling for everyone. I'd say that's pretty irrational, no?
No the appropriate analogy would be:

Me: "Half the trees in my yard are palm trees"
You: "No they aren't, 90% of (made up statistic)"

I NEVER EVER STATED ANYWHERE THAT MY EXPERIENCE IS INDICATIVE OF HOMESCHOOLERS EVERYWHERE.

Go ahead, find where I did. You can't because you made that up.
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Florida
4,092 posts, read 3,069,394 times
Reputation: 8623
What made up stats did I include? And I did not realize that your entire district only included grades 9 through 12. It is my opinion that it's not bizarre to assume that, as most districts, in my experience, contain all grades. You seem to be taking the entire discussion very personally, though, so I'll just congratulate you on your excellent school. I'm glad that your students have the opportunity to learn things that no one else can.

For my family, though, and for a couple million others (that's an educated guess, not a completely made up statistic; there is no good way to count homeschoolers, because some states have no notification laws), homeschooling is working just great. It's wonderful that every family can make the the decisions that suit them best. In my opinion, of course.

Last edited by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy; 04-02-2013 at 03:48 PM..
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,271 posts, read 4,987,673 times
Reputation: 3861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
We are currently in the south, where homeschooling is very well accepted. We only have one neighbor who went that route though, because we are fortunate enough to have an excellent public system. This neighbor was able to expose her musically talented kids to a great deal more practice time than they would have gotten in the schools, however, once she gave birth to a Down's Syndrome baby, she knew she could not do as well with his development issues as the public school program would afford him. She ended up transferring all 4 of her children to the public school system, and is very pleased.

Her older children certainly didn't suffer by home schooling, but neither did my own by attending public school. Different strokes, and different focuses.
I know a number of women who home school children with Down Syndrome, and almost all of them are former special education teachers. They all say that they would never send their children to public school because of what they've seen happen in special education classrooms. In case anyone is concerned, their kids are all doing very well.
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:54 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
What made up stats did I include? And I did not realize that your entire district only included grades 9 through 12. It is my opinion that it's not bizarre to assume that, as most districts, in my experience, contain all grades. You seem to be taking the entire discussion very personally, though, so I'll just congratulate you on your excellent school. I'm glad that your students have the opportunity to learn things that no one else can.

For my family, though, and for a couple million others (that's an educated guess, not a completely made up statistic; there is no good way to count homeschoolers, because some states have no notification laws), homeschooling is working just great. It's wonderful that every family can make the the decisions that suit them best. In my opinion, of course.
Another strawman. I never said homeschooling doesn't or can't work, that IS something you made up. In fact I said quite the opposite.

What I did say, and what you even bolded in my first post was that I was wrong for finding only a minority of my students who had been homeschooled were prepared for our program in terms of skills and knowledge base.

Thats great that you are suddenly back pedaling now but it doesn't change anything.
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:45 PM
 
3,515 posts, read 4,362,713 times
Reputation: 4591
Here are examples of some very successful homeschooled people. It can be and is a very good option for many.

Homeschooled-Famous Homeschoolers - Well known home schooled people

10 Celebrities that Give Homeschooling a Good Name : Parentables

Famous
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Florida
4,092 posts, read 3,069,394 times
Reputation: 8623
You said that those who homeschool well are in the minority. That is what I took exception to. You did not define doing well as "having the content knowledge required to be above average in a school for gifted teenagers." You added all of that later. My premise is that homeschoolers, by and large, tend to be as successful as or more successful than typical public school students. In my experience. And in the experience of college admissions officers, apparently.
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:02 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
You said that those who homeschool well are in the minority. That is what I took exception to. You did not define doing well as "having the content knowledge required to be above average in a school for gifted teenagers." You added all of that later. My premise is that homeschoolers, by and large, tend to be as successful as or more successful than typical public school students. In my experience. And in the experience of college admissions officers, apparently.
Oh for gods sake. Really? Now I have stated that homeschoolers don't go to college or can't be successful? How many strawmen are you going to burn?

YOU are the one who took my original post and ran with it and turned it into

1. Homeschoolers are not going to college
2. Homeschoolers can't be successful
3. Homeschool is only moms sitting at kitchen tables
4. and on and on and on

Which part of I never said those things is so hard to deal with?

Maybe re-read the post that got your knickers in such a twist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I am a teacher, I would absolutely never home school I high school aged student. I used to think I wouldn't homeschool any child, but having had a few homeschooled kids over the years who were pretty good I think it is possible to homeschool and do it well. Based on my experiences though those are the minority.

But like most things, I think a parent who is highly motivated, intelligent, and has good resource can homeschool the typical child. At least until high school.
Look if you can't admit you completely twisted what I said out of context that is your problem. I had already limited what I was talking about to MY EXPERIENCE, regardless it says far more about you than it does about me.
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,441,296 times
Reputation: 7702
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
Hopefully you're making a joke.
No I'm dead serious. Polls show that 38 percent of parents flat out cite religious reasons for homeschooling. Those are just the ones that admit it.

Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 - Parentsí Reasons for Homeschooling
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Florida
4,092 posts, read 3,069,394 times
Reputation: 8623
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Oh for gods sake. Really? Now I have stated that homeschoolers don't go to college or can't be successful? How many strawmen are you going to burn?

YOU are the one who took my original post and ran with it and turned it into

1. Homeschoolers are not going to college
2. Homeschoolers can't be successful
3. Homeschool is only moms sitting at kitchen tables
4. and on and on and on

Which part of I never said those things is so hard to deal with?

Maybe re-read the post that got your knickers in such a twist.



Look if you can't admit you completely twisted what I said out of context that is your problem. I had already limited what I was talking about to MY EXPERIENCE, regardless it says far more about you than it does about me.
Where did you get the bolded from? And where were all of those stats that I made up? In looking at some other posts, I see that this absurdity is your MO for debates, so I won't be responding to you again.
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