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See I disagree. I think high school needs to be more exploratory. Most kids have many different skills that can be improved, to lead to a happy adulthood. I just started some woodworking and found out that I'm good at it and its a good stress relief for when life makes me miserable. I'm 27, I could have learned so much more if that opportunity had been presented to me in high school. The only industrial arts classes were at a tech center half an hour away and I needed to stay at school to get more core classes (physics, chemistry, AP history to be competitive for college, I got cut from soccer and rode the bench in basketball because it was all about the wins and losses and I learned to hate sports for 10 years.
High school needs to be less competitive because people need to have a broader understanding and apppreciation for everyone else's role in the world. I've seen parents keep their kids out of programs because they had a bad experience with it 30 years ago and they believe no good can come of it.
When did education become more about worker training and less about learning? I personally think that making things more competitive (even in the economy and global marketplace) is going to take things in the completely wrong direction and education from the very beginning (preschool) will be about making sure little Johnnny or Susie will have a good job and make lots of money and that is a lousy solution because in reality the odds are pretty good that someone can come along and do your job as good as or better than you can do it. In the economy we're all pretty replaceable I think its better that we offer our kids more ways to be happy as they grow up, not ways of making lots of money.
Sadly, very sadly, with the way college admissions are these days, kids need to focus on a couple to a few things and see them through the four years versus taking this, that and the other thing and belonging to 20 clubs. Again, I have worked closely with several college admissions people from all over the county and they all say the same thing, figure out what you are good at and stick with it. Start football as a freshman and play four years, start on the yearbook staff in the 9th grade as a staff member and wind up the editor your senior year, be on student government for four years. THESE are the kids that are getting into the competitive colleges. Sure, grades matter as well and classes, of course but you have to remember that, especially at the very competitive colleges, everyone applying has the grades (and if they do not, they are not getting the right guidance as to where to apply that is in reach) and more often than not, it comes down to the small details like the extracurricular activities. These colleges want to see students who are active members of the community, who have taken the time to perfect their skills and who know what they want.
Ex. I have two students, both with about a 3.9 GPA, great
comparable test scores and about the same number of AP courses and they both want to go to UVA. One student is a four year member, and captain, of the field hockey team, works as an editor on the paper and has been a member of the chorus all throughout high school. The other did debate as a freshman, worked on the newspaper as a sophomore and has been a member of the French Club for two years. Guess who is getting in?? Again, there are other factors, recommendations, essays, etc. BUT, the colleges want these kids to focus on their strengths. That is not me talking, that is hundreds of college admissions professionals.
Trust me, college admissions is way out of hand but it is what it is. We can fight it, or we can help kids maximize their chances, that is what I do.
I think you should take a survey amongst all people in the top 10% of wealth, and then a survey of all the people in the bottom 10%. What do you want to bet that the top are far more happy then the bottom.
Turns out, its hard to be happy when you are hungry and your water keeps getting turned off. In capitalism, the only way to pursue self fullfilling endeavors, is to gain enough money to comfortably be able to pursue them without dealing with any of the pitfalls and dispair poverty brings.
Hi. Thank you for that comment. That is a perfect prime example of what needs to change in the EDUCATION field. Those children are the ones who need to be able to feel equal in that building that they call school. There are far more of those children than there are the top athletes. We will out number the system that way. Trust me. There again, they would be able to do sports, if you make a fair game. Fair? Whats that? Ok, forget about fair, do the numbers. I just cannot believe our UNITED STATES is letting kids fall through the cracks, and will not make room for everyone. I am concerned for those kids who do not have power or food, with the schools knowledge of this. If those kids could feel half as important as those who are coddled by the EDUCATION system for sports, then maybe they would try harder at their EDUCATION. Excuse me, but has anyone looked at the college drop out rates lately? They are outstanding! That is so sad. Those kids have been fooled into thinking they have been EDUCATED. Whoops, guess not. Ya all can throw up your two high achieving students while I gather up the other 3,000 to rally this matter. Those are the children who deserve an EDUCATION. All children deserve an EDUCATION, A REAL EDUCATION out of the schools they go to. That is just not happening. Why not? Hmmmm, could sports be in the way of this?? Definately. Well again, thank you for your comments.
Hi. Thank you for that comment. That is a perfect prime example of what needs to change in the EDUCATION field. Those children are the ones who need to be able to feel equal in that building that they call school. There are far more of those children than there are the top athletes. We will out number the system that way. Trust me. There again, they would be able to do sports, if you make a fair game. Fair? Whats that? Ok, forget about fair, do the numbers. I just cannot believe our UNITED STATES is letting kids fall through the cracks, and will not make room for everyone. I am concerned for those kids who do not have power or food, with the schools knowledge of this. If those kids could feel half as important as those who are coddled by the EDUCATION system for sports, then maybe they would try harder at their EDUCATION. Excuse me, but has anyone looked at the college drop out rates lately? They are outstanding! That is so sad. Those kids have been fooled into thinking they have been EDUCATED. Whoops, guess not. Ya all can throw up your two high achieving students while I gather up the other 3,000 to rally this matter. Those are the children who deserve an EDUCATION. All children deserve an EDUCATION, A REAL EDUCATION out of the schools they go to. That is just not happening. Why not? Hmmmm, could sports be in the way of this?? Definately. Well again, thank you for your comments.
There are far more programs available for poor/underachieving students then there are for the advanced students. There are many things available for poor families, free breakfast/lunch, free day care, etc. The problem is getting them to CARE about getting a good education. Unfortunatly it is more often the case then not with lower income families. You see it time and time again where they simply won't take an active interest in their children getting a good education. Yes, there are exceptions but the vast majority of lower income families are not interested in school. Until THAT changes the schools can only do so much.
Bill Cosby has been very outspoken on this topic lately (well for a long time really but has come to light again lately). It is creating a huge controversy in the lower income 'community'. He is basically saying get off your butts and work to improve your life but the internal motivation isn't there.
There are far more programs available for poor/underachieving students then there are for the advanced students. There are many things available for poor families, free breakfast/lunch, free day care, etc. The problem is getting them to CARE about getting a good education. Unfortunatly it is more often the case then not with lower income families. You see it time and time again where they simply won't take an active interest in their children getting a good education. Yes, there are exceptions but the vast majority of lower income families are not interested in school. Until THAT changes the schools can only do so much.
Bill Cosby has been very outspoken on this topic lately (well for a long time really but has come to light again lately). It is creating a huge controversy in the lower income 'community'. He is basically saying get off your butts and work to improve your life but the internal motivation isn't there.
Granted, I do believe that many lower income families have no value in education. Ive found out that an overwhelming percent of people in the lower income brackets put almost zero value on education.
That said, simply because there are a few programs for poor kids, does not fix every thing or even anything.
Here is a great example. When I was younger, I went to a very good public elementary school, probably one of the best in the city. They had great teachers, new computer equipment, freshly painted playground equipment etc etc. After I graduated elementary school, they decided to "redo" the school districts. Basically, they took our poor neighborhood, cut it out of the fairly affluent school I attended, and sent us to us to one of the worst, academically challenged elementary schools in the city. Luckily, I didnt suffer, but my younger siblings did get affected. On parent teacher conference day, my mother was the only one who showed up to my brothers 5th grade classroom, and you can imagine her surprise when she found out the only piece of instructional material provided to the students was a map taped to the desk. No books, no computers, no nothing.
When my mother asked why there were no books, and my brother wasnt assigned any homework ever, the teacher replied "The students dont do it anyway, and they destroy all the books, so why even bother". The few assignments they did in class were very familiar to my brother, who did the same work two grades back in our old elementary school. It was even worse, because my brother attended the advanced magnet school in our old school, so he was even further ahead then what they were.
My first grader sister, who could already read on a 7th grade level, finger painted all day, and learned letter people.
It didnt matter how many "free programs" there were, it was impossible to get a good education out of that school, even assuming you wanted to learn.
There are many other factors as well. Even assuming you get free lunch, what happens when the kid goes home? What if they have to work a job to take care of their siblings? What if they have no power? How do they do homework? Don't you think its hard to concentrate on homework worrying about bullets coming through your window, while battling hunger pains simutaneously? Free lunch doesnt feed you for the whole day.
There are far more programs available for poor/underachieving students then there are for the advanced students.
Time Magazine published a cover story in August about the fact that a huge amount of our country's education resources are devoted to underachieving students, while significantly less is alloted to providing an appropriate education to students with high potential.
"...our education system has little idea how to cultivate its most promising students. Since well before the Bush Administration began using the impossibly sunny term "no child left behind," those who write education policy in the U.S. have worried most about kids at the bottom, stragglers of impoverished means or IQs. But surprisingly, gifted students drop out at the same rates as nongifted kids--about 5% of both populations leave school early. Later in life, according to the scholarly Handbook of Gifted Education, up to one-fifth of dropouts test in the gifted range. Earlier this year, Patrick Gonzales of the U.S. Department of Education presented a paper showing that the highest-achieving students in six other countries, including Japan, Hungary and Singapore, scored significantly higher in math than their bright U.S. counterparts, who scored about the same as the Estonians. Which all suggests we may be squandering a national resource: our best young minds."
"American schools spend more than $8 billion a year educating the mentally retarded. Spending on the gifted isn't even tabulated in some states, but by the most generous calculation, we spend no more than $800 million on gifted programs. But it can't make sense to spend 10 times as much to try to bring low-achieving students to mere proficiency as we do to nurture those with the greatest potential."
"...lifting everyone up to a minimum level is more important than allowing students to excel to their limit."
This last quote, in particular, explains why American students are at or near the bottom on international comparisons.
This seems like a good time to bring something up that I know I have said before her but maybe not on this thread.
I have been a public educator for 7 years and do you want to talk about someplace where the money is going? Let's talk ESL or ESOL programs. Do you know how much money is spent each year trying to educate students who do not speak English, hiring teachers that do only that, hiring interpreters, parent advocates, etc., who do NOTHING but work with students and families that do not speak English.
As a guidance counselor, do you know how much time I have spent searching for translators, trying to find someone in the building who can call a parent for me because they speak no English and having conferences that take twice as long because they had to be translated. THIS is time taken away from working with high achieving kids or even those that are low achieving but need counseling, academic or otherwise. This is time taken away from kids of taxpayers who have every right to a full education for thier kids.
This is money being taken away from actual education. Imagine the resources that our schools would have if that money was spent on actual education of English speaking students (this is America, right?). Imagine that.
So, we should take away the sports, the possibly one thing that is keeping these kids healthy and happy (therefore successful academically) but continue to enable people to come into this country, not speaking our language, not attempting to learn when they get here, and soak up more and more money each year, subsequently taking away from American born children and families?
Think about that.
Now, believe it or not, I am a strong democrat. I know, hard to believe, right! But, after working in the public school system for so long, it is something that has really started to bother me. I had a student once who was 17 years old, born in Virginia so his family has been in America for at least 17 years, right? His parents spoke no English and, are you ready, they would keep him home from school if they needed to run errands or have a service person come to the home, so he could translate for them. Hmmmm. Yet, I see their side too, why learn English when everywhere you go, you can get whatever you need in Spanish here in this country. I called my cell phone customer service the other day and it said, 'for English, press one'. Wait, why do I have to press one, I speak English, this is America? If you are going to come to this country and not learn the language, you press one.
Sorry, this is my soapbox, can you tell!! I do understand that there are plenty of immigrants that come to this country and assimilate very well and learn the language and are great additions to our communities, I work with a lot of them. However, the money that is spent in education for families and kids that do nothing but soak up all the freebies they are being given, is taking away from EDUCATION, and EDUCATION is what you want, right? There are other things taking away from EDUCATION than sports, trust me. In my opinon, sports is only adding to the success of our kids, but you know my opinion on that already, right??
There are far more programs available for poor/underachieving students then there are for the advanced students. There are many things available for poor families, free breakfast/lunch, free day care, etc. The problem is getting them to CARE about getting a good education. Unfortunatly it is more often the case then not with lower income families. You see it time and time again where they simply won't take an active interest in their children getting a good education. Yes, there are exceptions but the vast majority of lower income families are not interested in school. Until THAT changes the schools can only do so much.
Well said! I certainly do everything I can for low income families to ensure they have the access to everything that everyone else does, and even more sometime, but it is true that the value of education is a lot less with most of those families. Simply, because they do not know better. For a lot of them, they are the product of their own upbringing and until something is done to break the cycle for them, it continues.
I do see a handful each year that seem to be getting it but the statistics are as they are, your lower socio-econmic areas are going to have the worst schools, test scores, course offerings, etc.
There are far more programs available for poor/underachieving students then there are for the advanced students. There are many things available for poor families, free breakfast/lunch, free day care, etc. The problem is getting them to CARE about getting a good education. Unfortunatly it is more often the case then not with lower income families. You see it time and time again where they simply won't take an active interest in their children getting a good education. Yes, there are exceptions but the vast majority of lower income families are not interested in school. Until THAT changes the schools can only do so much.
Bill Cosby has been very outspoken on this topic lately (well for a long time really but has come to light again lately). It is creating a huge controversy in the lower income 'community'. He is basically saying get off your butts and work to improve your life but the internal motivation isn't there.
Well here's a reason its hard to motivate poor kids. The social mobility in America is not that good. If you are born poor you will die poor. All those countries with social programs, Germany, France, Canada, England, have better mobility.
Waking Up from the American Dream - Business Week reprint (http://reclaimdemocracy.org/weekly_2003/american_dream_death.html - broken link)
Low income students may be overachieving at first, but they are trapped by their environment and lose out by the time they finish high school. Be it the school that they're in and the problems of the community that ruin the school, parents that don't care, or many other things, eventually caring about school is lost by the kids. Nowadays most jobs that pay decent require a college degree. To most kids, with the rise of college tuition, there is no hope unless they are valedictorian (at least in their minds)
I wish people would stop believing in these up by the bootstraps stories. I really find that maybe 1 in a million. Maybe instead we can take the kids every year in groups of 1000, put them in a giant pen and let them fight each other for supremacy. They can get a handful of household items and whoever can beat all the others into submission and be the leader can be educated. It will be more economical, heck, we can tape it for reality TV!!!
Completely OT, but this makes me think of something I saw this morning. There was a man, when I was driving to work, who was standing on the side of the road with a sign that said 'Need help with gas'. The synic in me wanted to roll down the window and ask him if he wanted some Mylanta or Gas-x but I am not thaaaatt bad!
Ok, so here was my thought, and I know it is not as simple as this, should this man be standing on the side of the road waiting for a hand-out or perhaps somewhere, maybe even a shelter, looking for resources to help him get a job or back on his feet. Again, I know it is not that simple but you see what I mean.
Well here's a reason its hard to motivate poor kids. The social mobility in America is not that good. If you are born poor you will die poor. All those countries with social programs, Germany, France, Canada, England, have better mobility.
Are you sure about that? There have been riots in France over some of these same issues.
As the Business Week article you linked states, "Education is the key to success in America today." The problem is, the American public education system is one of the worst in the industrialized world.
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Prime Example
But, after working in the public school system for so long, it is something that has really started to bother me. I had a student once who was 17 years old, born in Virginia so his family has been in America for at least 17 years, right? His parents spoke no English and, are you ready, they would keep him home from school if they needed to run errands or have a service person come to the home, so he could translate for them. Hmmmm. Yet, I see their side too, why learn English when everywhere you go, you can get whatever you need in Spanish here in this country. I called my cell phone customer service the other day and it said, 'for English, press one'. Wait, why do I have to press one, I speak English, this is America? If you are going to come to this country and not learn the language, you press one.
