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Old 08-15-2013, 02:25 PM
 
1,614 posts, read 1,682,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Higher education generally has risen faster than inflation and can cost a family a bundle especially if more than one child attends. It seems institutions raised tuition simply because they could knowing that everyone knows you 'need an education'. Question is has our educational institutions met their goal of 'educating' students what with the fact that a college education today doesn't necessarily guarantee a job after a student graduates. And the fact that students tend to have more debt as a result of that education puts the question to whether or not a college education is 'worth it'. Ultimately this all goes to asking what's an 'education' for and are our institutions doing a good job along those lines?
Higher education is definitely anachronistic in its current form.

Having gone to a moderely prestiguous college for my under grad, I can tell you that that colleges aren't particularly good at imparting knowledge or developing one's mental acumen. That is to say, for a lot of degrees, you could learn the same thing and develop the same kills without setting foot on a campus.

At this point, the phrase college industrial complex rings especially true in my ears. It's a crappy system that takes advantage of kids.

However, that arbitrary piece of paper can be important, meaningless though it may be as a testament to the owner's actually abilities and intelligence.
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:54 PM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,569,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere View Post
^^I agree and I think doing the bare minimum for education is common among both poor performing and high performing students. I stated this in another thread is that too many people look at education and having a job as a chore rather than a life fulfillment. Some only think "what is the best job I can get that doesn't require lots of schooling, pays good money, and is not too stressful." If people eventually find the career or field of work they'd love, we'd all be much more content.

I'll also add this. As much as dorming at school is a great experience, there are many of those there just to socialize and party rather than focus on education or career. Or more so, they get distracted by the social scene and don't put enough thought into what they want to learn and what possible career they might want.
Oh yeah I agree especially with the high performing student part. There are two types of high performing students in my experiences: those who become interested in what they're learning and the self proclaimed "high achievers" who just want an A.
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Since young people have little to no experience in order to make the determination of what to do for the rest of their lives, a high school education generally tries to give them the sort of preparation that leaves as many doors open as possible.

I think the move towards college for nearly everyone is necessary because the future seems as though brains and technical knowledge and ability are going to be the high demand areas of the future. Years back a person could be hired with not much education. People could afford to attend college and follow their bliss knowing that just the diploma would open some doors for them - that there would always be some sort of job awaiting them, just for attending college.

Most of those jobs have been made redundant by outsourcing, importing labor, automation and computers.

Attending college for enrichment, for the love of learning, is a luxury of the wealthy these days.

With more and more people chasing fewer and fewer jobs only the best qualified will be accepted into gainful employment in the field of their choice. It is now not only that you graduate with the appropriate major, but also often that you come from one of the best colleges.
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:17 PM
 
Location: The Berk in Denver, CO USA
13,115 posts, read 18,723,211 times
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Default Ymmv

"What is the purpose of schooling? For a job or for managing life?"
Yes
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:53 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,533,560 times
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Quote:
Attending college for enrichment, for the love of learning, is a luxury of the wealthy these days.

Perhaps we indeed have forgotten what an education means today? In the 18th books, were scarce and learning at a premium. At that time, arguably it was for the 'love of learning'. Today yes it does appear that there's not time to really understand say the Romantic poets like Keats or Shelley or literature for that matter. You don't go to school to study them as such anymore. It's maybe more like getting that A from Prof Nunsense in calculus to get that job in computer engineering.
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Old 08-16-2013, 02:21 PM
 
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Formal education is required if one has goals of being a doctor or lawyer (careers that are not attainable without a college degree).

However, that does not mean that students who spend 13 years in school should not be able to graduate from the 12th grade and have had sufficient education to secure a decent paying job. There has to be a way to include technical training during those years. Not everyone should 'have' to get a college degree to get a good job that affords a wage they can live on.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Down the rabbit hole
847 posts, read 891,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombocom View Post
Higher education is definitely anachronistic in its current form.

Having gone to a moderely prestiguous college for my under grad, I can tell you that that colleges aren't particularly good at imparting knowledge or developing one's mental acumen. That is to say, for a lot of degrees, you could learn the same thing and develop the same kills without setting foot on a campus.

At this point, the phrase college industrial complex rings especially true in my ears. It's a crappy system that takes advantage of kids.

However, that arbitrary piece of paper can be important, meaningless though it may be as a testament to the owner's actually abilities and intelligence.


The other day I was looking through the classifieds and I came across a job posting that stated at the end: College Degree Required - Reason: Shows commitment. I don't remember what type of job it was advertising but I do remember thinking that it shouldn't be necessary to have a degree for whatever the job was. It's sad how often employer thinking runs along these lines. A college degree isn't necessarily a sign of achievement. A college degree with a GPA of 3.8 or better is an achievement. A degree isn't always a sign of intelligence. At best, it's a sign of perseverance, at it's worst, it's a sign that you can party through 4 (or 5 or 6 years) and still manage to be mediocre enough to obtain a piece of paper.

If we had an educational system that was designed to identify individual strengths and guide the students toward those strengths, then a nationwide apprenticeship program would produce far more effective workers at a much earlier age. Before we had a formal educational system, that was how most skills were passed along. In a similar thread, I stated that I'd sooner hire a person with 2 years practical experience than a recent college grad with no work record. On the same footing, with all factors being equal (i.e. intelligence, drive, dedication) the apprentice will always be a more valuable employee because of a practical head start.

Take a look at our armed forces. They train straight out of boot camp and in most cases, with under a year's special training, turn out recruits ready to work in their chosen field. The rest they learn by doing.

For example: I used to do a lot of work for Toll Brothers (a nationwide home builder). At some point in the late eighties they started moving away from employing long time construction professionals as project and assistant project managers at their building sites and started hiring recent construction management grads instead. That's when it all went to hell. Many of the kids coming out of school didn't know which end of a hammer to hold much less run a 100 site building project. Of course those kids could be had for about half the price as somebody with practical experience. It was a painful, slow production year as those kids cut their teeth on real world jobs and the problems they present.

Schooling should be for both education and preparing for life, but as it stands, with the exception of the new crop of magnet schools, our educational system does neither. Ultimately, life is the greatest teacher.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:58 AM
 
Location: midwest
1,349 posts, read 952,281 times
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Most of the non-tech people do not know how bad the technical training is.

The schools are designed to make a book and they mostly do not supply very good books.

Try these two and see how much better the electronic techs and electrical engineers are better than you if you get through both of them.

Teach Yourself Electricity and Electronics (2006) by Stan Gibilisco
teach yourself electricity and electronics

The Art of Electronics (1989) by Horowitz and Hill
Download The Art of Electronics – Horowitz & Hill | books download

But most techs and EEs did not have programs like this when they went to school.

EveryCircuit by Igor Vytyaz
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ycircuit&hl=en

But aren't JOBS about MONEY? So why hasn't double-entry accounting been mandatory for everybody for the last 50 years? The system is about keeping most of us running on a treadmill.

Cost of Living (1952) by Sheckley Robert
https://senjibqa.wordpress.com/2011/...ost-of-living/
https://senjibqa.wordpress.com/category/science/

psik

Last edited by psikeyhackr; 08-17-2013 at 11:58 AM.. Reason: add book
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:00 PM
 
Location: midwest
1,349 posts, read 952,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psikeyhackr View Post
The schools are designed to make a book and they mostly do not supply very good books.
That was supposed to be "make a buck".

psik
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Old 08-19-2013, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 6,919,156 times
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"Ah, I see!" said the blind woman. "It's all the colleges' fault that their grads can't get good paying jobs!"

I get a real sense in this thread that many posters are trying to shirk their own responsibilities for what they do/did in their lives. Parents, teachers, and guidance counselors told you a lot of things you should or should not do when you were an adolescent, and you took some of that advice to heart and the rest you ignored. That was your choice.

A number of posters have gone on about various alternatives to a college degree, but when you look at it long and hard, did parents/teachers/guardians really have it that wrong? What great career opportunities did you miss out on by going to college rather than by detailing cars at the local Chevy dealership or by cashiering at Walmart? What great on-the-job-training did you pass on to study at Expense U? The fact is that unskilled and low skilled jobs that pay decently and offer opportunities for advancement are virtually non-existent. The fact is that employers don't want to waste time and money on OTJT because employees aren't likely to stay long enough for the employer to gain from his investment. The Chevy dealership will send its veteran mechanics to training on new diagnostic equipment, but it's not going to train a kid fresh off the street how to be a mechanic. Most high schools simply don't have the $$$ to provide up-to-date vocational training in auto mechanics or other technical careers.

Unless somebody coerced you to attend a particular college, again it was your choice of school, and your choice of a major. It's also your choice on whether you make the most of whatever school you choose to attend:
  • Maybe a two-year program in nursing or a one-year certificate program in welding or electricity at the local community college would have been a better choice than getting a BA in Business or a BS in Elementary Education.
  • Maybe joining the military or working for a year (or going to the local community college to get a general degree) are better choices for kids who "don't know what they want to do" than investing big $$$ (and taking out loans to do it) on going to a four year school and living on campus.
  • Maybe working as an intern for the summer would have been a wiser move than spending summer life-guarding or working in a shop in the mall.
  • Maybe not partying quite so hearty and showing up for all your classes, doing reading assignments, and studying for exams would have enabled you to get As and Bs instead of Cs in your major.

I'm not absolving colleges of responsibility for how they present their product, but the fact is that four year colleges are NOT vocational schools. Their responsibility is to encourage students to think critically and to express themselves well while gaining some expertise in their chosen field. Community colleges and various trade schools are more for vocational training. Four year college grads who have been decent students should be flexible enough to apply their education to success in several fields whereas one/two year vocational grads will likely have less flexible career choices.

More importantly, what students get out of any college/training course is about proportional to the effort that they put into it.
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