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100% true that anyone -- including the poorest of poor people (which BTW includes many people who work in low-wage jobs) can just magically move anywhere they want? Again, that statement is just silly.
Again, READ THE ACTUAL RESEARCH ON SCHOOL INEQUALITY. Clearly you don't WANT to do that since it would show that your preconceived notions are simply not correct.
No one is denying that parents and students themselves have some control over how they do in school, but the schools themselves DO matter. You can keep believing that they don't or they're "basically alike" but you are simply wrong according to the research.
Please, no different from your dogma. And research perfomred by people have the same dogma is...
Be honest, take the worst HS in the Bronx, move the students lock stock and barrel to a good school (say Chappaqua high school) and look at the results after 3 yrs - will be marginal. On the other hand, say take 10% of those kids and replace 10% at Chappaqua. Then you'lll see results. It aint the desks, the teachers or the walls. Its the culture. Not genetic, and not fixed by huge amounts of $$ (with the poorest children in many states going to schools that are disporportionately susbsidized by the state). Its not the kid's fault, but your pretense, maintained by so many, just results in wheel spinning.
Plus its easy to rent in most excellent school districts. Many illegal immigrants working out in expensive parts of LI and Westchester (for example, thopse working as landscapers and contractors) rent there too. They are not dumb, and they don't let the place they started off in life imprison the fate of their children. Its not like this knowledge is secret any more.
Please, no different from your dogma. And research perfomred by people have the same dogma is...
Be honest, take the worst HS in the Bronx, move the students lock stock and barrel to a good school (say Chappaqua high school) and look at the results after 3 yrs - will be marginal. On the other hand, say take 10% of those kids and replace 10% at Chappaqua. Then you'lll see results. It aint the desks, the teachers or the walls. Its the culture. Not genetic, and not fixed by huge amounts of $$ (with the poorest children in many states going to schools that are disporportionately susbsidized by the state). Its not the kid's fault, but your pretense, maintained by so many, just results in wheel spinning.
Plus its easy to rent in most excellent school districts. Many illegal immigrants working out in expensive parts of LI and Westchester (for example, thopse working as landscapers and contractors) rent there too. They are not dumb, and they don't let the place they started off in life imprison the fate of their children. Its not like this knowledge is secret any more.
There is a trend in our area for communities to ban rentals. They have excellent schools and this is one of the strategies they use to ensure that the homeowners are the ones with the children in schools. One town has also outlawed multi-family dwellings. Another community is planning to inspect every rental home in a town which historically was very renter-friendly. The new requirements have a long list of expensive upgrades that will have to be done in order to get a permit to rent. There is currently a large immigrant population who are likely renters who would be displaced when the new laws go into effect. The plan is to cut down on rentals, put a lot of new properties on the market from people who are no longer able to rent their housing, and allow developers to come in to rebuild as upmarket housing. The new development feeds tax money into the public schools, which directly benefits the homeowners with children in schools. It's easy to see the attraction.
Larkspur123..
I got the %90 from my own performance (or rather, lack thereof) and the hindsight I now have about my school work and actually learning something from my meager efforts. I am just an average person so I figured my 'guesstimate' is pretty close for those of us who are mentally capable yet refuse to discipline ourselves to the art of study.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule as I am sure there are exceptions to my perspective of my experience. However, we do our children a great disservice to imagine they aren`t smart enough to learn and give them a 'pass' on effort and discipline.
And I agree with you about course material and presentation. I know my own children languished through too many TV hours when they were in jr. high and high school. Thankfully they would push past these dead times and wind up learning much more from school than I did in my day.
Anyway, Thanks for the discussion and I wish you and your youngster the best.
I have a hard time understanding why people blame school districts, local governments, racism, class inequity, etc. for a student`s poor performance. 90% of a youngster`s poor performance at school is because he/she chooses not to pursue his/her own education.
I know it isn`t popular now-days to put much responsibility on children but when they are children is when they learn to cope with responsibility. How ironic Baby-Boomers, of which I am one, stomped their feet and protested in the streets to get the right to vote at 18 and then some years later would rush to the school to defend their "Precious" when he or she had gotten themselves in trouble because he or she was "only a child". And we as Baby-Boomers seem to be moving further from rational thought each passing day when it comes to educating our children and grandchildren.
I can tell you from experience and memory why I did so poorly in junior high school and high school. It is because I was mentally lazy and I was rebellious. Being one of a large single-parent family I watched my brothers and sisters do their homework after school as I was getting ready to do more important things like go hunting or fishing or just hang out at the pool hall with my 'friends'. I was a terrible student. My actions disrupted the classrooms I sat in and kept me from learning 1/4th of what I should have. Being from a single-parent home was no excuse. My brothers and sisters all did well in school both academically and in sports. I just was not going to give school any more effort than was required for me to pass because passing was what was acceptable to my peers.
It is the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids go to school sure, because that is the law but after about the 7th or 8th grade (at least back then) the child will decide whether or not he or she will exert the effort necessary to get education. Now how do we make youngsters accept responsibility for their choices? I`m sure the motivation for each young person is different so that is something the parent will have to figure out.
But to keep throwing money at a broken system and blame each other for the disproportionate share of responsibility of a child`s failure scholastically is to perpetuate this lunacy ad infintum.
And it is unlikely to change for the better any time soon. Heck, at least one teacher poster on this thread refuses to spell properly to convey his or her thoughts to us. How in the world do we think little Johnny is going to associate life success with academic success given this type of example.
My personal thoughts are it is a great disservice to highly intelligent boys and girls to legally force them to go to school in the first place. So many more would succeed if they could get out on their own and apprentice their ways to success. So that later when they were more mature and they decided to go to school their education would mean so much more.
Having said all this though, I realize education, like crime in America are both big business so that the welfare of our younger fellow citizens will always be second place. Too bad. For us and for them.
While everyone has to be responsible for themselves, it is up to parents, the school system, and the individual child (as the child ages) to create an environment that will lead to success - it is a collective effort and not the minor child's alone. Look at Detroit's schools. School facilities are falling apart. Basic services like lighting and toilets may not work properly. Every negative social trait imaginable exists in these communities. The teachers themselves are part of this dysfunctional community. The bad feeds off the bad here.
Yes, you can always find a "Horatio Alger" outlier of a kid coming from nothing or dysfunction and doing exceptionally well. However, this is the exception, not the rule. Many of the kids who come from dysfunction will remain dysfunctional themselves in adulthood - it is all they know unless there is proper intervention into a more productive lifestyle somewhere along the line. The "bootstrapper" mentality doesn't always or even usually work. This line of thinking is the same one that is trotted out when someone says that because Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, or Larry Ellison didn't finish college and succeed, that you can as well. While it's technically true, it's also misleading.
I do agree that the system is broken. Here in east TN, average teacher salaries are greater than those of similarly educated, private sector professionals. Benefits, relative to the private sector, are excellent. Everyone I personally went to school with who wanted to be an educator locally got a local job. Our area is saturated with education professionals, yet our schools, in the main, perform at a below average level in a state that itself is nationally below average. What a value for my tax dollar.
Everyone needs a guaranteed minimum level of education. One can still legally drop out here in 10th grade or so. This part of the population in today's labor market is essentially unemployable. Many high school graduates, by virture of lack of further education alone, will not be considered for the middle class jobs of today (such as they are). Everyone needs at least a high school level education in reading, writing, grammar, mathematics, science, and I'd also argue for basic personal finance and civics. There are students (and adults also) graduating even today from high schools and universities who lack the written communication skills to even get the gist of a simple email in the workplace.
I do agree that we need more practical, hands-on types of education for those so inclined. My aunt wanted my cousin to go to college. He had neither the desire to go nor was it practical for him. He eventually dropped out of school, joined the military, became an MP, and is now a deputy. It may not be the highest paying career, but it suits his personal skillset and temperament, and it's certainly a needed profession.
I certainly think school need to try to pull everyone up and raise standards that simply teach down to floor of learning.
There is a trend in our area for communities to ban rentals. They have excellent schools and this is one of the strategies they use to ensure that the homeowners are the ones with the children in schools. One town has also outlawed multi-family dwellings. Another community is planning to inspect every rental home in a town which historically was very renter-friendly. The new requirements have a long list of expensive upgrades that will have to be done in order to get a permit to rent. There is currently a large immigrant population who are likely renters who would be displaced when the new laws go into effect. The plan is to cut down on rentals, put a lot of new properties on the market from people who are no longer able to rent their housing, and allow developers to come in to rebuild as upmarket housing. The new development feeds tax money into the public schools, which directly benefits the homeowners with children in schools. It's easy to see the attraction.
That sounds way, wwwaaaayyyyy racist. I don't give it a snowball's chance in court and I'm surprised in this day and age anyone would even seriously propose such a thing.
It is the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids go to school sure, because that is the law but after about the 7th or 8th grade (at least back then) the child will decide whether or not he or she will exert the effort necessary to get education. Now how do we make youngsters accept responsibility for their choices? I`m sure the motivation for each young person is different so that is something the parent will have to figure out.
And you know I'd think that it is the responsibility of parents not only to make sure 'their kids go to school' but it is the additional responsibility to perhaps inculcate in their children the importance of making learning a life-long endeavor. If a 'pass-along' from parent to school system occurs in 7th/8th grade hopefully an environment in the household has been set to help achieve that student to understand the importance of learning in their lives. I think parents have a great deal of responsibility there.
My personal thoughts are it is a great disservice to highly intelligent boys and girls to legally force them to go to school in the first place. So many more would succeed if they could get out on their own and apprentice their ways to success. So that later when they were more mature and they decided to go to school their education would mean so much more.
Having said all this though, I realize education, like crime in America are both big business so that the welfare of our younger fellow citizens will always be second place. Too bad. For us and for them.
Being so called highly intelligent is overrated by far. I've know alleged geniuses who would read scientific journals and who live in half way houses.
School is much more than learning academic subjects. Its about learning how to work with others. Learning to how to deal with people outside one's immediate family and friends. Learning how to get to a place on time, complete projects on time, etc.
No employer wants to invest lots of money on a genius who hasn't proven he can complete school, get a professional license, etc.
They don't give out the types of apprenticeships you suggest also because after giving a kid all that training (which costs quite a bit of money) there is absolutely nothing to prevent the kid from bailing out on the employer offering the apprenticeship.
There's a reason why the current system is the way it is around the world. Also, a big part of doing well at work (and in school) is within reasonable limits, doing what you are TOLD to do. Its that's simple.
There is a trend in our area for communities to ban rentals. They have excellent schools and this is one of the strategies they use to ensure that the homeowners are the ones with the children in schools. One town has also outlawed multi-family dwellings. Another community is planning to inspect every rental home in a town which historically was very renter-friendly. The new requirements have a long list of expensive upgrades that will have to be done in order to get a permit to rent. There is currently a large immigrant population who are likely renters who would be displaced when the new laws go into effect. The plan is to cut down on rentals, put a lot of new properties on the market from people who are no longer able to rent their housing, and allow developers to come in to rebuild as upmarket housing. The new development feeds tax money into the public schools, which directly benefits the homeowners with children in schools. It's easy to see the attraction.
There are no links for the redevelopment plans as the principals involved are not candid about their intentions. I suppose that an underling could record comments at a private meeting similar to the way that Mitch Romney's comment about the takers got out, but there are likely no public statements about the long-term consequences of pushing out lower-income residents in a growing community.
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Again, that statement is just silly.
