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I agree with what many are saying. i also think there needs to be more respect given to the role of an "educator" or a teacher. Back in the day, being a teacher was something that was seen positively, as is in many other countries today. I don't believe that in the US being a teacher is seen as a good profession. This (and many other factors- such as lack of resources, low income...)may contribute to the lack of motivation that exists for many teachers today and the way they interact and motivate other students. As part of the Self Determination literature, students learn best when they are motivated and part of being motivated is seeing that their teachers are motivated as well.
I can't speak to other teachers but respect is the thing I miss the most about being an engineer. As to doing my job well, the sheer number of students I have really gets in the way of that. For example, students benefit from a fast turn around on grading assignments but with appx. 150 students to grade papers for, my turn around time is slow. It took me 4 weeks to hand back the last batch of lab reports.
Also setting up labs and demos for multiple chemistry classes is a challenge. Back when I was in high school the chemistry teacher had an extra prep hour and the science department had a teaching assistant to help set up labs, on lab days and to tear down labs. Now it's every man for himself and classes are larger than ever. I feel a lot of stress and angst over trying to do this job right. I paid my daughter $50 to come in and wash the dishes before Christmas so that I'd have clean glassware to start the new semester. It took her 6 hours. And I'm lucky, I have enough glassware that I can just set it aside and do other things. In my first teaching job I barely had enough glassware to set up one lab let alone 3 or 4 and had no choice but to wash the dishes nightly before I could set up for the next day.
Some days I feel completely overwhelmed before I start. The pay doesn't help. The lack of respect makes it oppressive....and then there are our wonderful administrators who seem to take the job all too often on some type of power trip.... So we have a combination of disrespect by society and our students, lack of support from our administrators, over work and under pay. Until the day I die I will talk anyone who will listen out of taking this job. It's not what people think it is.
I went into this profession thinking teachers were respected because I respect teachers but the general public and students do not.
I thought I'd be able to make a difference but the system won't let you make a difference. You either drink the kool aid or end up out of work.
The pay wouldn't be as big of an issue as it is if I had respect and wasn't overworked. Sure the vacation schedule is great but when you're burned out by June, it's hard to enjoy much of that time off and I'd rather have the time off spread throughout the year to avoid getting burned out in the first place.
And I so miss having the support of my managers. Teaching is done in isolation and so is being a principal. The superintendent and school board see only what the principals want them to see. They aren't in the building on a daily basis. They don't see what really goes on. The teachers are afraid to speak up for fear of losing their jobs. It's really a pathetic profession. I understand why 50% of teachers leave the profession by their 5th year. I'd be gone myself if I could find something else. I'm finding it very difficult to make a U turn back into engineering after having made the mistake of going into teaching.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-03-2014 at 05:55 AM..
Too many times people outside of education see technology as some kind of great savior. They don't see what I see which is kids using technology as a crutch and excuse not to learn to think. Technology is great IF you know how to think. If you use it to do your thinking for you, you're sunk. This is the battle I fight every day.
Why learn when we can look it up they cry....why learn to write when we can cut and paste they cry....why pay attention to the teacher when we can look it up later they cry....we're smart because we can USE technology they cry.... They have no idea what the technology that has been laid at their feet is capable of because they can only do with it what the technology can do for them. Instead of being the masters of technology we imagined they'd be, they are slaves to it. Unable to do a simple math problem or spell a word without a technological crutch to help them.
I cringe when I hear people say we need more technology in schools. I know we need less technology in schools. Kids and parents are using the availability of technology and the solutions technology provides as an excuse not to learn or think. We are going down a dangerous path.
People outside of education cry about how education has not changed but the human brain hasn't changed either. Just because we have computers now doesn't mean we stop teaching to the brains sitting in our classroom. How did kids learn math and writing before computers? Not only did those low tech methods work, they worked better than the high tech methods we're employing today. I swear the more we use technology the less we expect kids to do with their brains. Technology is dummying down our kids and we are dummying down education for the new high tech student who can't do anything without the assistance of a computer. The next step will be to invent computers that can think for us and just let the computers do everything.
I agree with this statement that "people outside of education see technology as some kind of great savior." I would include in this group principals, superintendents and school boards. This group and many parents see "computer literacy" as a critical skill that all students must attain. They see the number of computers per classroom as a key metric in how well their school is performing. One district that I am familiar with has given each student an iPad. The students have become very proficient in the use of the camera in taking selfies and pictures of other students. Most teachers have not incorporated the iPads into instruction beyond having students e-mail their homework to the teacher.
Many of the students I have seen aren't capable of using Google to effectively cut and paste intelligently or to help them learn a concept that they are unfamiliar. They are, however, quite familiar with how to use a Google image search to find images of tattoos, guns, latest fashions and hot rod trucks.
I have mixed feelings about using technology with math. I think calculators should not be used in school. Computers should be improving the learning of math at all levels but I have not seen evidence of it. There are many oon-linemath programs that provide games and drills that give instant feedback and reinforce teaching. This should be a major improvement over the days when my teacher would write math problems on the chalkboard, we did them and then took our paper up to the teacher's desk to have it corrected. I think it all goes back to not memorizing basic math facts, and this carries on all through high school for many students.
I agree with this statement that "people outside of education see technology as some kind of great savior." I would include in this group principals, superintendents and school boards. This group and many parents see "computer literacy" as a critical skill that all students must attain. They see the number of computers per classroom as a key metric in how well their school is performing. One district that I am familiar with has given each student an iPad. The students have become very proficient in the use of the camera in taking selfies and pictures of other students. Most teachers have not incorporated the iPads into instruction beyond having students e-mail their homework to the teacher.
Many of the students I have seen aren't capable of using Google to effectively cut and paste intelligently or to help them learn a concept that they are unfamiliar. They are, however, quite familiar with how to use a Google image search to find images of tattoos, guns, latest fashions and hot rod trucks.
I have mixed feelings about using technology with math. I think calculators should not be used in school. Computers should be improving the learning of math at all levels but I have not seen evidence of it. There are many oon-linemath programs that provide games and drills that give instant feedback and reinforce teaching. This should be a major improvement over the days when my teacher would write math problems on the chalkboard, we did them and then took our paper up to the teacher's desk to have it corrected. I think it all goes back to not memorizing basic math facts, and this carries on all through high school for many students.
I agree on not using calculators but math is one area where computers can help kids with drill work and give instant feedback. I would, however, insist the students do their own work by requiring them to use the program in a supervised area. You'd have to disable everything else on the computer besides the math drill program. Any teacher who has ever taken a class to the computer lab knows what happens when they have unrestricted access to the internet. They're doing everything except what they should be doing. (I have no freaking idea why people think computers are good for kids).
I really fear for this generation. They think they're all that because they can use technology but they cannot think or write and employers will demand they be able to do both.
Computers can be used well in education. The charter school my dd's attended did. They assigned a laptop to every student and then never told them how to use them. They simply gave them assignments and expected the students to figure out how to use the computer on their own and they did. I swear, by 6th grade, both of my kids could run laps around me on a computer. They both also treat a computer like a tool instead of a novelty item or a toy or a means to cheat. Not that they don't use them for fun things but when they use a writing program it's actually original writing. When dd's calculus program locks her out of the internet she doesn't grab her sister's lap top and use the internet anyway. Somehow the school conveyed the idea that that computer was a tool not a toy and my kids got the message that cheating is wrong. I do think they should be used but the way our kids use them to cheat, we need to figure out how to stop the cheating.
Assuming I can find a teaching job for next year, I plan on getting lap tops for my room instesd of going to the computer lab. I'm going to require that they bring in hard copies of any articles they want to use and then type their papers in class. They can download them to my thumb drive before they leave but they will not have access to the internet while they are writing. I know all too well what happens when they do. It's called cut, paste, shake and edit (change every 4th to 5th word using a thesaurus so it doesn't get zinged in a plagiarism checker). That is not writing but my students think it is. That's how they have learned to use a computer. If you challenge them on this they'll tell you that this is just them using their resources and we should be proud of them for coming up with it.
My students seriously need to take a technological step backwards and log off. Of course I'm called a dinosaur and told I'm afraid of technology. I love technology but I learned to think and write before I learned to use technology. For me it's a boon. I can do 10 times the work in half the time. For my students who did not learn how to think and write before learning how to use a computer they simply never learned to think and write. All they can do is use a computer to do the work for them. They are dumbfounded when I try to take their computer away and make them write. They don't know what to do. I asked my students to do a hand written outline for the last lab report and gave them time in class to do it yet only about half of them attempted it. They don't know how to write. All they know to do is cut, paste, shake and edit. That's writing to them because that's what they've always done.
Now, I do think that students should learn to use computers in school but I think they should learn to use them AFTER they've learned to use the computer between their ears and learned to write original work well. Then the computer becomes a tool to enhance what the students already know how to do instead of a means to be lazy and avoid learning.
Unfortunately, the direction I see K-12 education headed is online learning. It's cheap and there's a ton of money to be made by those selling both computers and software. It will not be until the kids who came up through online learning are graduating from college that they will finally figure out that this does not work. Kids only become adept at cheating the system. Cheating the system no longer works when you're out in the real world. Sadly, the kids with integrity who don't cheat the system are also the ones least likely to lie during interviews and tell the interviewer what they want to hear with a straight face so they're not the ones who get the jobs.
Next will be entrance exams for corporations but the cheaters will figure their way around those too. From where I sit, all technology is doing is distracting our kids from learning and teaching them how to cheat. I would love to transport back to 1960's and teach my students without technology. I think they'd learn more.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-03-2014 at 09:50 AM..
I agree on not using calculators but math is one area where computers can help kids with drill work and give instant feedback. I would, however, insist the students do their own work by requiring them to use the program in a supervised area. You'd have to disable everything else on the computer besides the math drill program. Any teacher who has ever taken a class to the computer lab knows what happens when they have unrestricted access to the internet. They're doing everything except what they should be doing. (I have no freaking idea why people think computers are good for kids).
I really fear for this generation. They think they're all that because they can use technology but they cannot think or write and employers will demand they be able to do both.
Computers can be used well in education. The charter school my dd's attended did. They assigned a laptop to every student and then never told them how to use them. They simply gave them assignments and expected the students to figure out how to use the computer on their own and they did. I swear, by 6th grade, both of my kids could run laps around me on a computer. They both also treat a computer like a tool instead of a novelty item or a toy or a means to cheat. Not that they don't use them for fun things but when they use a writing program it's actually original writing. When dd's calculus program locks her out of the internet she doesn't grab her sister's lap top and use the internet anyway. Somehow the school conveyed the idea that that computer was a tool not a toy and my kids got the message that cheating is wrong. I do think they should be used but the way our kids use them to cheat, we need to figure out how to stop the cheating.
Assuming I can find a teaching job for next year, I plan on getting lap tops for my room instesd of going to the computer lab. I'm going to require that they bring in hard copies of any articles they want to use and then type their papers in class. They can download them to my thumb drive before they leave but they will not have access to the internet while they are writing. I know all too well what happens when they do. It's called cut, paste, shake and edit (change every 4th to 5th word using a thesaurus so it doesn't get zinged in a plagiarism checker). That is not writing but my students think it is. That's how they have learned to use a computer. If you challenge them on this they'll tell you that this is just them using their resources and we should be proud of them for coming up with it.
My students seriously need to take a technological step backwards and log off. Of course I'm called a dinosaur and told I'm afraid of technology. I love technology but I learned to think and write before I learned to use technology. For me it's a boon. I can do 10 times the work in half the time. For my students who did not learn how to think and write before learning how to use a computer they simply never learned to think and write. All they can do is use a computer to do the work for them. They are dumbfounded when I try to take their computer away and make them write. They don't know what to do. I asked my students to do a hand written outline for the last lab report and gave them time in class to do it yet only about half of them attempted it. They don't know how to write. All they know to do is cut, paste, shake and edit. That's writing to them because that's what they've always done.
Now, I do think that students should learn to use computers in school but I think they should learn to use them AFTER they've learned to use the computer between their ears and learned to write original work well. Then the computer becomes a tool to enhance what the students already know how to do instead of a means to be lazy and avoid learning.
Unfortunately, the direction I see K-12 education headed is online learning. It's cheap and there's a ton of money to be made by those selling both computers and software. It will not be until the kids who came up through online learning are graduating from college that they will finally figure out that this does not work. Kids only become adept at cheating the system. Cheating the system no longer works when you're out in the real world. Sadly, the kids with integrity who don't cheat the system are also the ones least likely to lie during interviews and tell the interviewer what they want to hear with a straight face so they're not the ones who get the jobs.
Next will be entrance exams for corporations but the cheaters will figure their way around those too. From where I sit, all technology is doing is distracting our kids from learning and teaching them how to cheat. I would love to transport back to 1960's and teach my students without technology. I think they'd learn more.
I've had a lot of success with having students use technology despite the challenges. I've successfully had them do activities and games in the computer lab without going off to surf the web or check email. They are good for initial learning of vocabulary or drill of skills. In the past, I've had success with projects using Google documents. It just occurred to me while reading your post, that if you have your students use Google documents to compose their papers, you can see all their edits, and can then determine whether or not they are using cut and paste. You can also add comments to their work or chat with them while they are working. I had several long projects a few years ago in which students used Google documents, spreadsheets, and presentations to work collaboratively.
One of the major frustrations that I have these days is that I have been moved to a room with only one very slow computer, while the computer labs have all been taken over for state test tutorials. So even though I have been trying to do 21st century learning (Ã la Intel Education workshops), I can no longer access the 21st century technology to do these kinds of projects. What I wouldn't give for a smartboard!
Have you ever used Google documents collaboratively? It's very cool. When I had two computers, for my initial demonstration I projected the document onto the overhead screen (using a 1990s panel projector that I still use) using one computer and had a student edit the document from the other computer. You should have seen the students' faces when the changes popped up on the original screen. It's perfect for students who don't have computers at home, or who need to collaborate with a classmate when they can't physically get together. From the teacher's point of view, the documents archive the versions, making it relatively easy to pinpoint where a student may have pasted material from an unauthorized source.
I've had a lot of success with having students use technology despite the challenges. I've successfully had them do activities and games in the computer lab without going off to surf the web or check email. They are good for initial learning of vocabulary or drill of skills. In the past, I've had success with projects using Google documents. It just occurred to me while reading your post, that if you have your students use Google documents to compose their papers, you can see all their edits, and can then determine whether or not they are using cut and paste. You can also add comments to their work or chat with them while they are working. I had several long projects a few years ago in which students used Google documents, spreadsheets, and presentations to work collaboratively.
One of the major frustrations that I have these days is that I have been moved to a room with only one very slow computer, while the computer labs have all been taken over for state test tutorials. So even though I have been trying to do 21st century learning (Ã la Intel Education workshops), I can no longer access the 21st century technology to do these kinds of projects. What I wouldn't give for a smartboard!
Have you ever used Google documents collaboratively? It's very cool. When I had two computers, for my initial demonstration I projected the document onto the overhead screen (using a 1990s panel projector that I still use) using one computer and had a student edit the document from the other computer. You should have seen the students' faces when the changes popped up on the original screen. It's perfect for students who don't have computers at home, or who need to collaborate with a classmate when they can't physically get together. From the teacher's point of view, the documents archive the versions, making it relatively easy to pinpoint where a student may have pasted material from an unauthorized source.
Thanks. I've never used Google docs this way. My problem is I'm asking for higher level writing not using computers for drill work. I like them for drill work and find that students will usually do the drill work when the programs are entertaining as some of the science programs are. My problem is getting them to write their own lab reports without googling someone else's report then cutting, pasting, shaking and editing. Often the report is then handed off to a friend or six who do the same thing.
In the charter school I attended my kids could turn in papers electronically through Moodle and I could comment and have them edit the papers. That worked better than just having them use computers as word processors where they can cut and paste from other documents. I end up spending 3-4 hours cutting and pasting their papers into a plagiarism checker that I pay for because the school will not. The school doesn't think we have a problem. (Translation the school wants teachers to look the other way in the name of high GPA's).
I've done review tests on Google docs but never had my students do their writing on Google docs. I'll have to look into that. What I want is my students using computers to enhance their writing not to DO the writing. I love being able to edit what I wrote but I grew up writing things by hand and then typing the final copy. I know how to do my own writing. I've only been suspected of plagiarism one time and that was in college. I turned in a paper almost identical to one another student had written just two years earlier. She and I had picked the same topic and settled on the same dozen sources. After interviewing me the dean decided that she and I are just too much alike and the similarities in our writing were simply the result of similarities in our thinking styles. (In other words we're both weird, lol). I was so nervous though. I had no way of proving that the paper was original even though it was. These days I run anything I write through a plagiarism checker. I've done so much reading that it's easy for me to accidentally quote something. I like plagscan. It's pricey for a teacher but it allows me to upload all of my student's work and then check them against each other. I'm trying to get a couple other teachers to go in and buy a school license so that we can store papers from one year to the next.
Thanks. I've never used Google docs this way. My problem is I'm asking for higher level writing not using computers for drill work. I like them for drill work and find that students will usually do the drill work when the programs are entertaining as some of the science programs are. My problem is getting them to write their own lab reports without googling someone else's report then cutting, pasting, shaking and editing. Often the report is then handed off to a friend or six who do the same thing.
In the charter school I attended my kids could turn in papers electronically through Moodle and I could comment and have them edit the papers. That worked better than just having them use computers as word processors where they can cut and paste from other documents. I end up spending 3-4 hours cutting and pasting their papers into a plagiarism checker that I pay for because the school will not. The school doesn't think we have a problem. (Translation the school wants teachers to look the other way in the name of high GPA's).
I've done review tests on Google docs but never had my students do their writing on Google docs. I'll have to look into that. What I want is my students using computers to enhance their writing not to DO the writing. I love being able to edit what I wrote but I grew up writing things by hand and then typing the final copy. I know how to do my own writing. I've only been suspected of plagiarism one time and that was in college. I turned in a paper almost identical to one another student had written just two years earlier. She and I had picked the same topic and settled on the same dozen sources. After interviewing me the dean decided that she and I are just too much alike and the similarities in our writing were simply the result of similarities in our thinking styles. (In other words we're both weird, lol). I was so nervous though. I had no way of proving that the paper was original even though it was. These days I run anything I write through a plagiarism checker. I've done so much reading that it's easy for me to accidentally quote something. I like plagscan. It's pricey for a teacher but it allows me to upload all of my student's work and then check them against each other. I'm trying to get a couple other teachers to go in and buy a school license so that we can store papers from one year to the next.
Meh. When I was a kid, plenty of people plagiarized from books. I think technology makes it easier, but kids who want to plagiarize will find a way to do so...
Meh. When I was a kid, plenty of people plagiarized from books. I think technology makes it easier, but kids who want to plagiarize will find a way to do so...
I think technology has made it much easier and more tempting. When I was a kid, you could plagiarize from a book but you still had to write it all out and type it up. It was almost as hard to plagiarize as write your own paper. You still had to do the research, read the papers and decide what to copy. Today kids can google someone else's report on the same topic and just start changing words with the help of the thesaurus feature in the word processor.
Back in the day, my biggest issue was accidentally forgetting to quote. By the time I read 12 articles on my topic and picked 4-6 to write the paper on, I knew them all well. I had to be careful not to say something the same way it was said in one or more articles but the writing was easy. I'd like to get my kids back to doing that kind of research.
While I realize kids have always cheated, I think cheating is the norm today because it's so easy with technology and kids often don't consider googling answers as cheating. I had an issue earlier this year with kids using the significant figures applet on their TI-86's during a test on significant figures. When challenged, they insisted that they were just "Using their resources". Of course the kids who didn't know about the applet cried foul and called it cheating. The kids who did use the applet tried to cry foul when I threw out the test and retested.
Many of my kids do not consider cut, paste, shake and edit plagiarism. They consider it using their resources. I'm at wits end with what to do here. They need to be able to write when they get out into the real world. It's a valuable skill. Your boss will not tolerate cut, paste, shake and edit. Especially if what you are writing could be published. I wrote lab reports for automotive testing for 7 years. I'm sure excerpts of my writing have been published if not entire reports. I know that results from my tests resulted in changes to the standards themselves. Our customers owned the reports once we handed them over to do with as they wished so anything we wrote had to be publishable. Plagiarism would never have been tolerated in my line of work.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-03-2014 at 06:01 PM..
Ok, I have got a revolutionary idea. Give the young people a well-grounded education in the 3 r's. Reading, writing, and arithmetic. Throw in a smattering of History and Social Studies. Now, you teach them to think about what they have been taught. Once this is done, you give them an aptitude test to see where their interests are, and what their abilities are. Based on this, give them hands on training, or higher education if they are interested in it, or their aptitude qualifies for it. Contrary to general expectations, not every student wants to be a rocket scientist or the CEO of such and such.
Don't make it so easy to outsource jobs to other countries. Don't make it so easy to import inferior products to the US. Instead of catering to big business, cater to small American small businesses and farms.
Do I expect posters to come down on me like a ton of bricks? Of course. Do I expect posters to consider what I have said in this post? Of course not. Most of you have absolutely no idea of how to think for yourselves. You go along with the thought of the day, as identified as the powers that be.
Ok, I have got a revolutionary idea. Give the young people a well-grounded education in the 3 r's. Reading, writing, and arithmetic. Throw in a smattering of History and Social Studies. Now, you teach them to think about what they have been taught. Once this is done, you give them an aptitude test to see where their interests are, and what their abilities are. Based on this, give them hands on training, or higher education if they are interested in it, or their aptitude qualifies for it. Contrary to general expectations, not every student wants to be a rocket scientist or the CEO of such and such.
Don't make it so easy to outsource jobs to other countries. Don't make it so easy to import inferior products to the US. Instead of catering to big business, cater to small American small businesses and farms.
Do I expect posters to come down on me like a ton of bricks? Of course. Do I expect posters to consider what I have said in this post? Of course not. Most of you have absolutely no idea of how to think for yourselves. You go along with the thought of the day, as identified as the powers that be.
Oh NOOOOO...... NOT the dreaded TRACKING.... How will parents handle it when they realize that Johnny isn't college material? Their egos will be deflated....
Seriously people, we need plumbers and electricians and mechanics and garbage collectors...especially garbage collectors. We'd be swimming in our own refuse if those heros in their green trucks didn't take our stinky garbage away every week. There is nothing wrong with making your living doing something that did not require a college degree. We need to get over this idea that every child is special and the sky is the limit for every child. The fact of the matter is most of our kids are pretty typical and some of them are going to be lucky if they ever get off the ground let alone fly high. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with being average. Most of us are damned close to average.
I agree on all counts. It should be as difficult to sell foreign goods here as it is for us to sell our goods abroad. We should focus on a basic education that arms kids with the three R's and enough knowledge to think about what's in their heads. We need to stop hiring foreign workers and grow what we need at home. The talent is here. It just needs to be nurtured.
We can all wish for unicorns as pets, too. The globalization genie is out of the bottle and the corporatization of America is unlikely to abate any time soon. Adapt or get left behind. The problem is that while many teachers want to adapt and progressively meet educational challenges, the decision makers are too busy figuring out how to profit from public education.
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So we have a combination of disrespect by society and our students, lack of support from our administrators, over work and under pay. Until the day I die I will talk anyone who will listen out of taking this job. It's not what people think it is.
