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And that confirms exactly what I said: that the west had the historical luxury to expand such extra-curricular preoccupations to their masses. Middle classes post-WWII and onwards were finally able to structure their time in ways that the "uppers" had done historically.
According to her accounts, my mother-in-law and all of her friends were ending any sort of activity by 4:00pm when they had their "tea time" - at a nice and slow pace. One other person I know who does this is the Queen on England.
When a child can grow up to have a perfectly decent life without entering a highly regarded profession that involves heavy academics (this applied to the entire West post WWII, but particularly to the US), then the family does not feel compelled to have their children spend so much time on grueling academics. This was the case of the west.
The reason why so many families in other parts of the world insist so strongly on heavy academics is because for them, ending up with a top notch profession was the only way out of a shi**y life. In America being mediocre was a perfect virtue; for a while, regular people without any sort of special merit lived just beautifully.
This party is ending in the West and lots of westerners still can't get a clue.
That's quite an interpretation, that people who do sports aren't concerned about academics. In fact, in most US high schools, it's just the opposite. The kids who aren't involved in other activities tend to be the ones who don't aspire to go to college. I am among the early post WW II generation; it was as true then as now.
The kids who aren't involved in other activities tend to be the ones who don't aspire to go to college. I am among the early post WW II generation; it was as true then as now.
I agree that it is a stretch to say sports = no academics.
However, I'm sorry. The kids who don't do anything but academics could be those whose parents cannot afford anything else but a good house in a good school district. Not doing sports has nothing to do with aspirations for college.
This was my experience (very few extracurriculars bc no extracurricular money) and we were pushed to go to college from day one. It was never an option in my mind. So I did school and I hung out with my friends, then went to college and am today very successful. I had a great time in college socializing and being a teen mostly. I also would not have done sports in any case bc I was a priss and could not be bothered with sweating in public. LOL. I was not interested in drama or anything else that would keep me in school longer. I liked academics and that's what I did. I was very good at it and have three degrees now to show for it. Way more educated than most people who were on sports teams I would say.
I agree that it is a stretch to say sports = no academics.
However, I'm sorry. The kids who don't do anything but academics could be those whose parents cannot afford anything else but a good house in a good school district. Not doing sports has nothing to do with aspirations for college.
This was my experience (very few extracurriculars bc no extracurricular money) and we were pushed to go to college from day one. It was never an option in my mind. So I did school and I hung out with my friends, then went to college and am today very successful. I had a great time in college socializing and being a teen mostly. I also would not have done sports in any case bc I was a priss and could not be bothered with sweating in public. LOL. I was not interested in drama or anything else that would keep me in school longer. I liked academics and that's what I did. I was very good at it and have three degrees now to show for it. Way more educated than most people who were on sports teams I would say.
In the second part of my post, I stated "activities". And really, it doesn't cost *that* much to do a lot of sports. Many can be done at the local recreation level. Some districts don't charge students for doing HS sports, but yeah, there are costs that go along with them anyway.
I knew students who did as you did, but "socializing", which you did do, can also include clubs, student govt. and other things.
My biggest objection, however, to the post I quoted is that sports was presented as something one would have time for if one weren't interested in academics.
And, truthfully, these days it's much harder to be a successful candidate for competitive colleges WITHOUT extracurriculars of some sort, including charity work. Given the choice between a candidate with a 4.0/high SAT and another candidate with equal GPA/test grades plus a track record of achievement in sports, drama, music, or charity work, many colleges will choose the second candidate who is more well-rounded and can contribute to the schools in other ways than academics.
We've all seen the stereotypical resumes of kids applying for Harvard who have started their own business at age 10, dug wells in sub-Saharan Africa, are concert pianists in addition to having a Black Belt in karate, etc.... Mind you, I'm not encouraging that kind of extreme behavior for high school students, but colleges do seem to expect applicants to have activities other than just their schoolwork.
I agree that most kids can do sports AND academics. Also, as you pointed out, some people are really not interested in running around sweating and socializing is much more interesting.
But, I stand corrected. We took ballet for years. I forgot about that.
Still, there are some children that do not have recreational centers nearby and the cost for school sports is prohibitive. Also, as I mentioned, there are just some kids that are not interested in sports. Really, doing sports is not all that important for some kids, especially girls. I was one of those girls that was not into that. Never appealed to me. And I think that is completely ok.
I think it is really completely ok to just go to school and do your coursework and socialize the rest of the time. Whether that is organized socializing/activity/club or informal, I think it is ok and it really does not matter very much.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I'm just saying sports and organized clubs are really not that important to many kids and I think that is perfectly ok. If the kid is staying out of trouble, doing well in school, maybe it gives the kid a chance to figure out themselves and just live/be. When I listen to my husband's school schedule, my first thought is always, when did you get a chance to figure out your OWN thoughts and ideas about things instead of always being told what to do by someone else (e.g., coach, teacher, club leader, parent). I like the idea of free time for a kid.
Just rambling thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
In the second part of my post, I stated "activities". And really, it doesn't cost *that* much to do a lot of sports. Many can be done at the local recreation level. Some districts don't charge students for doing HS sports, but yeah, there are costs that go along with them anyway.
I knew students who did as you did, but "socializing", which you did do, can also include clubs, student govt. and other things.
My biggest objection, however, to the post I quoted is that sports was presented as something one would have time for if one weren't interested in academics.
Last edited by LovelySummer; 03-24-2014 at 10:29 AM..
My concern is that kids digging wells in sub-saharan African and getting a 4.0 are doing much too much and need to rest and spend a bit of time just being a kid. I am not disputing the idea that a college may want to take the kids that have the most stuff on their "resume." I am just saying that, as parents, we should be careful not to push stuff on kids and to let them figure out their own way in life. If my kid has a 4.0 and Harvard will not take him bc he wanted to spend his free time hanging with his friends instead of starting a business at 10 or 14 or 16, then well, he's a kid. I imagine he'll find another school to get into with his 4.0. Now, if he actually WANTS to dig wells in sub-saharan Africa, then I am all for it and I will be the first to invest in his business.
The key is being led by the child and not bowing to silliness of pressures that are just ridiculous. All kids will have the rest of their lives to be run down, extremely tired and deprived of having free time. We don't need to push that on them in high school. Again, if the kid wants to do that, fine. I have a kid who could read phonetically before 3. I did not push that on him. That's all him. See, what I mean? If he likes it then I love it....but it is child-led, not the other way around.
Not saying you are pushing but there are parents that do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMMom
And, truthfully, these days it's much harder to be a successful candidate for competitive colleges WITHOUT extracurriculars of some sort, including charity work. Given the choice between a candidate with a 4.0/high SAT and another candidate with equal GPA/test grades plus a track record of achievement in sports, drama, music, or charity work, many colleges will choose the second candidate who is more well-rounded and can contribute to the schools in other ways than academics.
We've all seen the stereotypical resumes of kids applying for Harvard who have started their own business at age 10, dug wells in sub-Saharan Africa, are concert pianists in addition to having a Black Belt in karate, etc.... Mind you, I'm not encouraging that kind of extreme behavior for high school students, but colleges do seem to expect applicants to have activities other than just their schoolwork.
That's quite an interpretation, that people who do sports aren't concerned about academics. In fact, in most US high schools, it's just the opposite. The kids who aren't involved in other activities tend to be the ones who don't aspire to go to college. I am among the early post WW II generation; it was as true then as now.
Of course - and this is because the US has had colleges on several tiers and because American universities are tangled up with the institution of sports to an extent unseen in other parts of the world.
Higher Ed in the US has not been an "all or nothing affair" - which in many other parts of the world it has. Here there are colleges ranging from "from excruciatingly difficult to get into" all the way to "breathing as an admission requirement".
Unfortunately, there is a bubble waiting to burst in higher ed, and soon all these second-hand degrees granted without much demand for rigorous academics will be worth nothing. It's already happening in fact.
If young people could only get into a few colleges that have incredibly tough academic requirements and only so many seats, I can assure you the EC industry would disappear.
You simply CANNOT become highly proficient in Math when you rush through 10 minutes of Math homework so you can have time to run to your daily sports practice (or insert EC of choice) that takes several hours daily. There is a reason why STEM departments are overrun by the foreign-born or sometimes children of the foreign-born.
I don't care what you think about this mythical "Renaissance student" prototype who is supposedly academically amazing, as well as an athlete with daily practice, and a volunteer, and an instrument player, and a horse rider....woo-hoo!
Everyone has 24 hours in a day period. And if the proverbial Asian kid eats "math on bread" for lunch is because he spends a lot of time on it and much less, if any, on all sorts of frilly EC-s.
Such kid will end up with a lucrative major/profession in high-demand, while the Rennaissance kid who spent his/her youth fleeting from one EC to another will still be searching for what he REALLY wants to do in life when he graduates with a useless major later on.
I agree that most kids can do sports AND academics. Also, as you pointed out, some people are really not interested in running around sweating and socializing is much more interesting.
But, I stand corrected. We took ballet for years. I forgot about that.
Still, there are some children that do not have recreational centers nearby and the cost for school sports is prohibitive. Also, as I mentioned, there are just some kids that are not interested in sports. Really, doing sports is not all that important for some kids, especially girls. I was one of those girls that was not into that. Never appealed to me. And I think that is completely ok.
I think it is really completely ok to just go to school and do your coursework and socialize the rest of the time. Whether that is organized socializing/activity/club or informal, I think it is ok and it really does not matter very much.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I'm just saying sports and organized clubs are really not that important to many kids and I think that is perfectly ok. If the kid is staying out of trouble, doing well in school, maybe it gives the kid a chance to figure out themselves and just live/be. When I listen to my husband's school schedule, my first thought is always, when did you get a chance to figure out your OWN thoughts and ideas about things instead of always being told what to do by someone else (e.g., coach, teacher, club leader, parent). I like the idea of free time for a kid.
Just rambling thoughts.
I think it's completely OK if you weren't interested in sports.
However, I think there are few kids today who don't have access to a local rec center or YMCA (which also offers lower cost sports than the private clubs, and also offers scholarships for those who can't afford it). My school district charges $45 for middle school sports (per sport), with a family cap of $405 whichincludes students in the family doing high school sports. They charge $185 for high school sports, same cap. Students on free/reduced lunch are free. These fees are probably lower than the fees even at the rec centers, certainly the $45 fee for MS is. So cost is not the issue.
Of course - and this is because the US has had colleges on several tiers and because American universities are tangled up with the institution of sports to an extent unseen in other parts of the world.
Higher Ed in the US has not been an "all or nothing affair" - which in many other parts of the world it has. Here there are colleges ranging from "from excruciatingly difficult to get into" all the way to "breathing as an admission requirement".
Unfortunately, there is a bubble waiting to burst in higher ed, and soon all these second-hand degrees granted without much demand for rigorous academics will be worth nothing. It's already happening in fact.
If young people could only get into a few colleges that have incredibly tough academic requirements and only so many seats, I can assure you the EC industry would disappear.
You simply CANNOT become highly proficient in Math when you rush through 10 minutes of Math homework so you can have time to run to your daily sports practice (or insert EC of choice) that takes several hours daily. There is a reason why STEM departments are overrun by the foreign-born or sometimes children of the foreign-born.
I don't care what you think about this mythical "Renaissance student" prototype who is supposedly academically amazing, as well as an athlete with daily practice, and a volunteer, and an instrument player, and a horse rider....woo-hoo!
Everyone has 24 hours in a day period. And if the proverbial Asian kid eats "math on bread" for lunch is because he spends a lot of time on it and much less, if any, on all sorts of frilly EC-s.
Such kid will end up with a lucrative major/profession in high-demand, while the Rennaissance kid who spent his/her youth fleeting from one EC to another will still be searching for what he REALLY wants to do in life when he graduates with a useless major later on.
Oh, for pity's sake! I know your kids are young yet. Perhaps you should wait until you have some personal experience before posting stuff like this.
You don't know how HS sports work. Outside of football, basketball and possibly baseball, it's intense for the season, but the season ends and that's that. Of course, some play on the club level outside of the season.
You are believing the nonsense written in the media about STEM. That is certainly not true in undergrad college education. Both my kids, to use your term, were "Renaissance kids" in the sense that they did sports, orchestra, volunteer work, and paid work, and they both majored in STEM subjects in college and both got graduate degrees as well. One has a doctorate. The same is true of many of their friends.
I didn't do sports or dig wells in Africa either. I did drama and some clubs at school. I was an excellent student and got into a highly selective liberal arts college and went on to get two graduate degrees. I'm doing great. But, I read my alumni magazine regarding the kids applying to my college nowadays and feel pretty sure that if my 18-year old self were applying nowadays, I probably wouldn't get in. It's a balance, and I agree that there's more to life than academics and also that a social life is important. My kids won't be travelling the world to dig wells or open businesses unless they decide they want to do it on their own. But, I do have to push them a bit. Given their 'druthers, they wouldn't be taking piano, for example, but I believe it is important, so they'll continue. I don't expect the coming of the next Mozart, but I believe they can benefit from it. It doesn't have to be EITHER academics OR sports/other activities. It's all good!
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