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@villageidiot: It's good to get some real information from an educator. I'm not an educator, though I have studied education issues for years in an organization I belong to. In any event, I as a non-educator, cannot understand how being AHEAD in a subject could be a detriment to one's test scores. If Algebra I is usually taught in 9th grade, and someone takes it in 8th, they've already mastered that material. Makes no sense to me that the school would prohibit this. My kids grew up in the NCLB era and it didn't prohibit them from advancing in math. I don't think Common Core changes anything in that regard.
Yes, it's based on the Depth vs. Breadth argument. However, the reality is, there are always kids that take longer to "get it" (even in an Honors class)...so the teacher still focuses on the lowest common denominator, rather than advanced material.
Katiana, the other thing you are not considering is the politics and school budgets. Teachers unions don't want teachers to have to do "more work" (especially now when they have to learn/document the common core!). So they don't want to ADD a geometry class for 8th grade...when Alg I is the highest they offer. The content is totallly different, so that means some teachers have to double up on the class content they teach; or they have to get another teacher which affects school budgets. The other option is letting kids go to the HS for the class, and they cite logistical and scheduling concerns. Lastly, local school boards run the schools here and the districts are small. Local school boards don't always support programs that are for a small % of students...especially when the school board members have kids themselves that wouldn't meet the criteria, so they deem it unimportant. Other states have larger regional or county school boards, where the incentives may be different.
Btw our district is top in the state and gets a 10 on Greatschools.
Also Katiana, to answer your question above...it's true that if SOME students are in Geometry in 8th grade, they don't "remember" the Algebra as well for the standardized test or for the SAT. I would agree with that for the kids-in-honors-who-maybe-shouldn't-be, but for the TOP students (ie the 95th percentile and above), I don't think this is an issue. However, the schools are highly fearful about standardized test results -- it's the #1 driver of everything going on in public schools these days -- so not sure why you have a hard time believing that they wouldn't want all kids focused on the material that will be tested. That will pull up the district's scores, and that is what the administrators want, to secure their jobs and schools.
As far as PA, it's not apples-to-apples with other states that do not offer "Gifted IEP", which PA does.
My kids high school had a first period geometry class for 7th and 8th graders and the kids got to the high school on their own (parents dropped them off) and then they were bused back to the middle school after class. The geometry class was designed to be only the jr. high kids. Of course, it was a large high school and had lots of sections of each class.
Yep. Larger district near us does this. But our district (actually much higher rated, because AVERAGE test scores are higher due to higher socioeconomics) is small, and doesn't offer this. Instead they cite many reasons why they "can't/won't offer that".
Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13
You couldn't take anything above Algebra I in junior high where I went, too. However, the reason was because you would have had to take it at the high school, which presented a transportation issue. The high school (that most of the kids were zoned to) was basically across the street and down a little ways (five minute walk max), but you wouldn't be allowed to walk. The district didn't want the liability of that. You had to arrange for your parents to shuffle you back and forth if there happened to be a class that would fit your schedule at the junior high, and the parents (who often worked two jobs) just couldn't do that.
Ours says the same thing. And they won't transport (it's a walking district with hardly any bus use at all), and then they won't let parents transport because then they miss classes at the middle school. I only know ONE parent that successfully got around this. It was the 2nd kid (they got all the "no's" with the first), the parents were professors (so listened to), and they provided outside testing to prove the kid knew the material. Others have tried to provide that, but been told "no". I haven't tried that because I think they have it set up for the kid to fail -- there is one Geometry teacher at the HS who fails kids all the time, so betcha they'd give the student that teacher, who also throws shoes and yells. I'm not sure my kid could handle that socially....so I gave up. He uses Khan Academy on his own instead.
Not in my district. A group of high school students lobbied the school board to change final exams from January to right before winter break and won! Parents have also lobbied about various other causes (can't think of any right off the top of my head) and won.
I think you should be happy that your district is receptive, and offers programs that other districts don't. But believe us when we say we've tried everything, and advanced students are held back from programming in many public schools -- even "the best" public schools. IN fact, in our area, the better the school is rated, the more likely they take a "one size fits all" approach because they are a "rigorous school".
Nonetheless, there are still all types of learners in high socioeconomic districts, and the gifted students do not get what they need in a "one size fits all" system. While our district offers Honors Alg I and Alg I to 2/3 of the 8th grade (there really is no difference between the two, other than the peer group - they take the same tests and Honors is maybe a week or two ahead)...they will not let kids take Alg I in 7th (my kid was ready for Alg I in 6th as he had mastered all of Pre-Algebra by then).
There is no gifted program in middle school, because they "offer Honors classes" (math and lang arts only, which means the science is basic!), yet as you see above, 2/3 of the grade is taking the same Math -- so how is this actually serving the highly gifted kids?! Even Special Ed students are in the middle class (which is Alg I, same material/tests as the Honors class)...and I have friends in this boat with kids struggling with the class. Yet they don't want their kids in the "low class" (which is actually grade level, Pre-Algebra in 8th)...they'd rather they struggle. The one relief about the Honors class is that those kids are not in it. At least there is a class with the kids that "get it" together (still, the bottom 10% struggles, but someone has to get the D's ).
Last edited by snuffybear; 04-27-2014 at 01:22 PM..
Yes, it's based on the Depth vs. Breadth argument. However, the reality is, there are always kids that take longer to "get it" (even in an Honors class)...so the teacher still focuses on the lowest common denominator, rather than advanced material.
Katiana, the other thing you are not considering is the politics and school budgets. Teachers unions don't want teachers to have to do "more work" (especially now when they have to learn/document the common core!). So they don't want to ADD a geometry class for 8th grade...when Alg I is the highest they offer. The content is totallly different, so that means some teachers have to double up on the class content they teach; or they have to get another teacher which affects school budgets. The other option is letting kids go to the HS for the class, and they cite logistical and scheduling concerns. Lastly, local school boards run the schools here and the districts are small. Local school boards don't always support programs that are for a small % of students...especially when the school board members have kids themselves that wouldn't meet the criteria, so they deem it unimportant. Other states have larger regional or county school boards, where the incentives may be different.
Btw our district is top in the state and gets a 10 on Greatschools.
Also Katiana, to answer your question above...it's true that if SOME students are in Geometry in 8th grade, they don't "remember" the Algebra as well for the standardized test or for the SAT. I would agree with that for the kids-in-honors-who-maybe-shouldn't-be, but for the TOP students (ie the 95th percentile and above), I don't think this is an issue. However, the schools are highly fearful about standardized test results -- it's the #1 driver of everything going on in public schools these days -- so not sure why you have a hard time believing that they wouldn't want all kids focused on the material that will be tested. That will pull up the district's scores, and that is what the administrators want, to secure their jobs and schools.
As far as PA, it's not apples-to-apples with other states that do not offer "Gifted IEP", which PA does.
You will never find a situation where teachers do not want to add a geometry or any other type of class. It is almost always the teachers who lobby the administration and school board to add a new class or change the current curriculum. Keep in mind this is job security for teachers when there are more available classes to teach.
The only time I have ever seen parents request a new class is at the elementary level where they request a new 3rd class, for example, because of overcrowding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snuffybear
Yep, and just black lists you and your kids too. Been there, tried that.
How does lobbying the school board black list you and your kids? The school board doesn't deal directly with your kids unless they are up for expulsion, and then they have the final say.
1) Yes, you will "get teachers that don't want to do more work", where there are strong unions and job-for-life after only 3 years. And, current climate is teachers pushing back everywhere due to Common Core! I once saw the documentation teachers have to do (every single thing they do is documented to a Common Core objective, such as Obj 452A.3 "Learning how to use negative integers on a numberline".
2) Small town, I disagree. The school board hired the teachers and administrators. The school board supports them more than parents. The school board wants to keep costs down and cannot hire new teachers for extra programs because they want to...they must trade off those decisions and supporting low-performing kids always comes first, because those are the kids at risk of not getting adequate scores on standardized tests.
Last edited by snuffybear; 04-27-2014 at 01:29 PM..
1) Yes, you will "get teachers that don't want to do more work", where there are strong unions and job-for-life after only 3 years. And, current climate is teachers pushing back everywhere due to Common Core! I once saw the documentation teachers have to do (every single thing they do is documented to a Common Core objective, such as Obj 452A.3 "Learning how to use negative integers on a numberline".
2) Small town, I disagree. The school board hired the teachers and administrators. The school board supports them more than parents. The school board wants to keep costs down and cannot hire new teachers for extra programs because they want to...they must trade off those decisions and supporting low-performing kids always comes first, because those are the kids at risk of not getting adequate scores on standardized tests.
I'm in Pennsylvania, which has one of the strongest teacher unions in the country. Our local school board is looking for opportunities to lay off teachers. They have turned some full time teaching jobs into part-time positions. They are trying to eliminate phys. ed., music, and computer applications classes. Any teacher who is not teaching a full schedule is in danger of being laid off.
I'm in a small town but in PA, the only large districts are Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. There are only a few others that have more than one high school.
You stated lobbying the school board blacklists you and your kids. I asked for examples. I see many people who request to be on the agenda at local school board meetings to air complaints. One local high school has a group of parents who have taken a petition to the school board to have the principal removed. Parents have lobbied my district school board to keep neighborhood elementary schools open. Parents lobbied the school board to have a new HS gymnasium built. They lobbied to add a couple of sports.
I have never seen a need to hire new teachers for extra programs. Most school districts in Western Pennsylvania have declining enrollments. The enrollment has declined faster than the number of teachers. A new program can typically be absorbed by existing teachers or the teacher will be given a supplemental contract. But again, what is a specific example of something that would cause a parent or child to be blacklisted, and what exactly doe that mean?
BTW, the parents' group that has started the petition to remove the principal is headed by a parent who subs at the HS. She is still subbing the last I have heard and the principal is still there.
I think you should be happy that your district is receptive, and offers programs that other districts don't. But believe us when we say we've tried everything, and advanced students are held back from programming in many public schools -- even "the best" public schools. IN fact, in our area, the better the school is rated, the more likely they take a "one size fits all" approach because they are a "rigorous school".
Nonetheless, there are still all types of learners in high socioeconomic districts, and the gifted students do not get what they need in a "one size fits all" system. While our district offers Honors Alg I and Alg I to 2/3 of the 8th grade (there really is no difference between the two, other than the peer group - they take the same tests and Honors is maybe a week or two ahead)...they will not let kids take Alg I in 7th (my kid was ready for Alg I in 6th as he had mastered all of Pre-Algebra by then).
There is no gifted program in middle school, because they "offer Honors classes" (math and lang arts only, which means the science is basic!), yet as you see above, 2/3 of the grade is taking the same Math -- so how is this actually serving the highly gifted kids?! Even Special Ed students are in the middle class (which is Alg I, same material/tests as the Honors class)...and I have friends in this boat with kids struggling with the class. Yet they don't want their kids in the "low class" (which is actually grade level, Pre-Algebra in 8th)...they'd rather they struggle. The one relief about the Honors class is that those kids are not in it. At least there is a class with the kids that "get it" together (still, the bottom 10% struggles, but someone has to get the D's ).
That's interesting. I have never put a whole lot of faith and "greatschools" anyway.
OK, this is going to sound condescending, but it's not intended to be. It's easy to get caught up in these advanced classes and such when your kid is in middle school and even high school. Parents agonize b/c their kid can't take the next level up, e.g. Algebra I in 7th grade (which my district permits), "basic" science, etc. However, in the great reckoning, in adulthood, it really doesn't matter much. One can get a PhD in physics w/o having taken Alg. I in 7th, or having taken "basic" science in all of middle school.
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