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Even that number is off. The average classroom size is 16 in this country now. Multiply that by 5 periods a day, and that's 80 kids.
But let's delve down even deeper. The cost per student in New York City is $19,000 a kid. The average student/teacher ratio in New York City is 24. That means a staggering $456,000 per classroom, with only a small fraction of that going to the teacher. With that kind of funding, you could pay one teacher to personally tutor five kids all day long. The teacher earns $100,000 and the kids get personalized instruction. Everybody's happy.
Obviously that's an exaggeration, one that doesn't take into account other associated costs. But it should tell you exactly how far out of whack things have gotten in how we fund schools and how completely removed from reality the entire educational establishment has gotten.
You keep focusing on the teacher who is the last to get any funds and not even included in any reform talks.
There is a huge bloated bureaucracy in education today.
It's not "local" anymore and it seems that is what people want..a centralized system originating at the Federal level.
I've yet to see that. All my classes have been 25-26 students (MS and HS) and I'm working in 3 different school districts.
Here's a fact sheet from the Institute of Education Sciences: Fast Facts
The money quote: "During the 1970s and early 1980s, public school enrollment decreased, while the number of teachers generally increased. For public schools, the number of pupils per teacher—that is, the pupil/teacher ratio—declined from 22.3 in 1970 to 17.9 in 1985. After enrollment started increasing in 1985, the public school pupil/teacher ratio continued to decline, reaching 17.2 in 1989. After a period of relative stability during the late 1980s through the mid-1990s, the ratio declined from 17.3 in 1995 to 15.4 in 2009. The public school pupil/teacher ratio increased to 16.0 in 2010. By comparison, the pupil/teacher ratio for private schools was estimated at 12.2 in 2010. The average class size in 2007–08 was 20.0 pupils for public elementary schools and 23.4 pupils for public secondary schools."
You keep focusing on the teacher who is the last to get any funds and not even included in any reform talks.
There is a huge bloated bureaucracy in education today.
It's not "local" anymore and it seems that is what people want..a centralized system originating at the Federal level.
Actually, I'm arguing the total opposite and agreeing with you on that point. We have a top-heavy bureaucracy where the people who do the teaching are the ones who have to go begging.
Here's the thing. I hear any number of teachers who complain about the bureaucracy, the rules, the entire mess. But how come teachers don't organize for greater effectiveness? How come teachers don't come together en masse and demand systemic change? Why doesn't this happen?
Oh, sure, there will be the occasional letter to the editor, but I'm talking about really advocating a better way, making your feelings known in the school board meetings, in the halls of the state legislature, and everywhere else. You guys have tenure, right? You have teachers unions, right? If the system is such a godawful offense against everybody, then organize and demand better. Not just better salaries and pensions, mind you, because that's all we hear right now.
Instead, get a half-million teachers together and say, "Listen up, America. You are spending grotesque amounts of money on schools and getting dismal results. But you are throwing half of it away. Here are the ten things we, the teachers of your children, recommend to clean up this mess. Some of it are things you need to do, some of it are things we need to do."
But even after getting whipsawed by 30 years of educational reform, teachers as a profession have not done that. I mean, hey, summer vacation is upon us. Seems like a good time to organize if you ask me.
Yet that's likely not going to happen, because the hold of orthodoxy is very strong. Just two weeks ago, I went to a meeting at the high school for all parents of rising 10th graders (Our high school is 10-12). The principal got up and gave the usual welcoming remarks and then said, "Studies have shown that homework isn't really all that effective, but we do it anyway to keep kids busy." In other words, the principal said, "We like mindless busywork," even if it means making the kid work a longer workday than his professional parents. So is it any wonder why parents become so resentful?
Here's a fact sheet from the Institute of Education Sciences: Fast Facts
The money quote: "During the 1970s and early 1980s, public school enrollment decreased, while the number of teachers generally increased. For public schools, the number of pupils per teacher—that is, the pupil/teacher ratio—declined from 22.3 in 1970 to 17.9 in 1985. After enrollment started increasing in 1985, the public school pupil/teacher ratio continued to decline, reaching 17.2 in 1989. After a period of relative stability during the late 1980s through the mid-1990s, the ratio declined from 17.3 in 1995 to 15.4 in 2009. The public school pupil/teacher ratio increased to 16.0 in 2010. By comparison, the pupil/teacher ratio for private schools was estimated at 12.2 in 2010. The average class size in 2007–08 was 20.0 pupils for public elementary schools and 23.4 pupils for public secondary schools."
Showing me a fact sheet from 2010 means nothing to me as I deal with reality here.
School budgets have been cut since 2010.
And how they calculate is number of students / number of instructional staff.
Not all instructional staff are classroom teachers.
I'm in 3 rural districts.
There is one subject teacher for the entire grade.
The 6th grade math teacher teaches all the 6th grade students and if there are 120 6th graders then you have full classes.
Texas has a max class size of 22 for K-4.
Last year hundreds of schools applied for waivers. They could not afford to hire more teachers and/or build more schools to stay within the limit.
Actually, I'm arguing the total opposite and agreeing with you on that point. We have a top-heavy bureaucracy where the people who do the teaching are the ones who have to go begging.
Here's the thing. I hear any number of teachers who complain about the bureaucracy, the rules, the entire mess. But how come teachers don't organize for greater effectiveness? How come teachers don't come together en masse and demand systemic change? Why doesn't this happen?
Oh, sure, there will be the occasional letter to the editor, but I'm talking about really advocating a better way, making your feelings known in the school board meetings, in the halls of the state legislature, and everywhere else. You guys have tenure, right? You have teachers unions, right? If the system is such a godawful offense against everybody, then organize and demand better. Not just better salaries and pensions, mind you, because that's all we hear right now.
Instead, get a half-million teachers together and say, "Listen up, America. You are spending grotesque amounts of money on schools and getting dismal results. But you are throwing half of it away. Here are the ten things we, the teachers of your children, recommend to clean up this mess. Some of it are things you need to do, some of it are things we need to do."
But even after getting whipsawed by 30 years of educational reform, teachers as a profession have not done that. I mean, hey, summer vacation is upon us. Seems like a good time to organize if you ask me.
Yet that's likely not going to happen, because the hold of orthodoxy is very strong. Just two weeks ago, I went to a meeting at the high school for all parents of rising 10th graders (Our high school is 10-12). The principal got up and gave the usual welcoming remarks and then said, "Studies have shown that homework isn't really all that effective, but we do it anyway to keep kids busy." In other words, the principal said, "We like mindless busywork," even if it means making the kid work a longer workday than his professional parents. So is it any wonder why parents become so resentful?
Because while the bureaucracy is centralized each school district behaves like their own little government with little accountability outside of their district. Put up, shut up or you're gone come June.
They operate in isolation and even unions can't change that.
Actually, I'm arguing the total opposite and agreeing with you on that point. We have a top-heavy bureaucracy where the people who do the teaching are the ones who have to go begging.
Here's the thing. I hear any number of teachers who complain about the bureaucracy, the rules, the entire mess. But how come teachers don't organize for greater effectiveness? How come teachers don't come together en masse and demand systemic change? Why doesn't this happen? Retaliation by school, district, and state-level bureaucrats.
Oh, sure, there will be the occasional letter to the editor, but I'm talking about really advocating a better way, making your feelings known in the school board meetings, in the halls of the state legislature, and everywhere else. You guys have tenure, right? Not in my state. You have teachers unions, right? Not in my state. If the system is such a godawful offense against everybody, then organize and demand better. Not just better salaries and pensions, mind you, because that's all we hear right now. In states across the country, legislators are trying to cut salaries, benefits, tenure (in states that have tenure), and increases for advanced degrees--the only way that teachers can make more money and remain in the classroom.
Instead, get a half-million teachers together and say, "Listen up, America. You are spending grotesque amounts of money on schools and getting dismal results. But you are throwing half of it away. Here are the ten things we, the teachers of your children, recommend to clean up this mess. Some of it are things you need to do, some of it are things we need to do." Fortunately, Diane Ravitch is doing exactly this and it is beginning to have an effect.
But even after getting whipsawed by 30 years of educational reform, teachers as a profession have not done that. I mean, hey, summer vacation is upon us. Seems like a good time to organize if you ask me.
Yet that's likely not going to happen, because the hold of orthodoxy is very strong. Just two weeks ago, I went to a meeting at the high school for all parents of rising 10th graders (Our high school is 10-12). The principal got up and gave the usual welcoming remarks and then said, "Studies have shown that homework isn't really all that effective, but we do it anyway to keep kids busy." In other words, the principal said, "We like mindless busywork," even if it means making the kid work a longer workday than his professional parents. So is it any wonder why parents become so resentful?
Also, the main reason for the decrease in the teacher-pupil ration since the 1970s is the increase in the population served by special education placement. These students were generally not in schools a couple of generations ago. They have very strict limits on their class sizes, so that it is not uncommon for a school's ratio to be low, when in reality, most class sizes are around 30 in high school where the exceptional education classes may have only 9-12 students at a time. Our school has nearly 20% of our students in exceptional education. That makes our overall ratio very low.
Because while the bureaucracy is centralized each school district behaves like their own little government with little accountability outside of their district. Put up, shut up or you're gone come June.
They operate in isolation and even unions can't change that.
You come across as not being a teacher..are you ?
Nope. And that's really not an argument. Teachers love to toss out that you're-not-a-teacher-so-what-do-you-know argument as if it were a trump card or something. In truth, it's pretty manifest that the system is indeed broken, and heaping the blame on the parents smells like passing the buck.
As far as the organizing thing is concerned, one teacher asking for change might lose his job. 500,000 teachers asking for change is a movement that gets taken very seriously.
Are we attracting our best and brightest into education or are they instead opting for finance, medicine or law? I'm not saying all teachers are incompetent but the most lucrative fields do attract the smartest people and thus see the most advancement. While I haven't done any research on the Common Core, I can't imagine how a unified teaching methodology dictated from above can possibly work when the kids are so different.
Even that number is off. The average classroom size is 16 in this country now. Multiply that by 5 periods a day, and that's 80 kids.
But let's delve down even deeper. The cost per student in New York City is $19,000 a kid. The average student/teacher ratio in New York City is 24. That means a staggering $456,000 per classroom, with only a small fraction of that going to the teacher. With that kind of funding, you could pay one teacher to personally tutor five kids all day long. The teacher earns $100,000 and the kids get personalized instruction. Everybody's happy.
Obviously that's an exaggeration, one that doesn't take into account other associated costs. But it should tell you exactly how far out of whack things have gotten in how we fund schools and how completely removed from reality the entire educational establishment has gotten.
Do you realize that student to teacher ratios and class sizes are two very different things? There is no way there is an average class size of 16 in this country. You'll have to prove that one. I'm sure there are schools that have a high percentage of special ed students whose student to teacher ratio is that low but I'm not buying this is average class size for this nation. Please cite your source for this number.
FTR I'm in a school with small class sizes. Mine are capped at 26 for chemistry, 32 for physical science and 36 for math. I'll see 26 in chemistry classes but I've never seen 36 in math. I'm usually under 30. 32 in physical science is typical.
And your cost analysis is too simplified. You need to take out infrastructure funding and separate out special ed before you can have a ghost of a chance of figuring out how much money per child there is in the classroom. Infrastructure and sinking fund monies come from a different pot and are not used for the classroom. They're not really spent on the kids. A $3 million dollar new school lasts 40 years. If you just peanut butter the cost over the current crop of students it looks like you're spending a lot more on them than you really are.
Are we attracting our best and brightest into education or are they instead opting for finance, medicine or law? I'm not saying all teachers are incompetent but the most lucrative fields do attract the smartest people and thus see the most advancement. While I haven't done any research on the Common Core, I can't imagine how a unified teaching methodology dictated from above can possibly work when the kids are so different.
Actually a well written common core would work but you need more than just a common core. You need common exit exams and you need to make them high stakes. Don't pass the exam then you don't pass the class. We need to stop passing kids who should not pass. This practice has a snowball effect and gets bigger and bigger as the years pass. If I pass Johnny in algebra I when he shouldn't pass he might not be ready for chemistry or algebra II. If we pass Suzy in spite of the fact she can't read, she ends up failing high school classes because she can't keep up. We need interventions in place for kids early on.
As to the common core, what I've seen it way too weak. I'd have to cut out 1/3 of my content to teach just the common core in chemistry. What bothers me is they have actually excluded some material that I consider higher level content. The stuff that makes my students think. I will have to cut that because it is named excluded.
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