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Out here it often does means a "job for life". That "due process" is so long and expensive that districts only even attempt it for the worst and leave the other terrible teachers in the classroom. Maybe if the union (ridiculously powerful and influential in this state) would give an inch on being able to fire terrible teachers it wouldn't have gotten this far.
How do you define "terrible" teachers?
FYI, the more I read about this case, the less it seems likely that tenure is going to be eliminated in California. Best case scenario for the plaintiffs is that the "probation period" for new teachers is expanded from 2 years to 4 or 5 year.
So the plaintiff's willfully trotted two statisticians whose work is far from unanimously agreed upon in their respective fields. In politics and I guess court cases, message seems to matter more than fact, but the reality will appear to be much different for those willing to listen to multiple aspects of an issue.
But see, this lawsuit and the subsequent ruling are not about putting the children first at all and I dare anyone to make a logical, fact-based argument to the contrary. The plaintiffs and the judge spoke in platitudes, using arguments that are clearly out-of-touch with what's happening on the ground.
The fact of the matter is that the people who brought the lawsuit (not the students, but those folks behind the students), an organization called "Students Matter," have been fighting against teachers' unions for year. This is not a conspiracy, their goal is to weaken teachers' unions.
By the way, let's take a step back here. Tenure is a long ways off from being completely eliminated. What's most likely to happen in California when the dust settles is that there may be more hoops for teachers to jump through to attain tenure.
Im not for a certain percentage of teachers being laid off or fired just for the sake of it. In fact, good teachers should be paid a whole lot more than they get now.
The problem is that you can't get rid of the bad ones. Teaching isn't some magical profession in which you can't measure performance. It's like any other job. If you don't have results, you don't have a job.
Im not for a certain percentage of teachers being laid off or fired just for the sake of it. In fact, good teachers should be paid a whole lot more than they get now.
The problem is that you can't get rid of the bad ones. Teaching isn't some magical profession in which you can't measure performance. It's like any other job. If you don't have results, you don't have a job.
It is different.
You don't get to pick and choose your students.
The student that doesn't speak English, is frequently absent, does no homework, fails tests and just doesn't care about school and is waiting until they can legally drop out is what they base your "performance" on.
You are measured on how they perform on tests.
In any other job an employee like that is put on probation and then fired.
The manager of those employees is able to MANAGE and remove unproductive people so that both he and the team are successful.
Teachers cannot do that.
Therein lies the difference.
And with CC and it's new teacher evaluations it was predicted that no sane teacher would want to teach in poor performing schools.
Do you think there's a problem with the current system? If so, how would you fix it?
Sure there is a huge problem. And the inability to remove bad or criminal teachers is one part of it. Another is bad performing schools with significant part of the staff "permanent substitutes" and another part inexperienced newcomers because regular teachers won't work in the place.
The first thing is to work out some validated technique to evaluate the job being done. This is a large and difficult undertaking...virtually research. Teachers don't really want it done and the school boards are not sure either. The whole system is concerned that they may not like the answer...so they don't really want to ask the question. Witness the fondness for teacher evaluation by classroom observation. Aside from the practical question of maintaining control and discipline can any validated evaluation be expected from such a technique?
I think there are a number of things that can stand scrutiny. Some really bother the teachers. Does a primary teacher really require a four year degree? Can the old normal graduate in two or three years be brought up to the right performance level? The advantage of course would practically be that one might cut the teacher load by a third or so with a less expensive skill level.
How about the value of advanced degrees? Is there any once past the specialty items to teach a particular subject? Do teachers get better with experience? How better?
So yeah I see a problem...but it is a lot bigger than the storing of a few individuals in rubber rooms.
this is a terrible thing and only people that are jealous because they can get fired for anything would revel in the misery and downfall of others. It really speaks of a person's personality to do this.
So basically, a teenager can say this person touched me and it's not true, but a teacher can get fired anyway. A teacher can be seen at a bar in their off hours and get fired anyway. So people want to hold teachers to a "higher standard" but don't want to afford them any protections from those that would maliciously try to take those positions away through lies and deceit. Personally, I hope people get teaching and those that think that this is a good idea can deal with their own brats(most can't which is why they are sent to school in the first place)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan
It is different.
You don't get to pick and choose your students.
The student that doesn't speak English, is frequently absent, does no homework, fails tests and just doesn't care about school and is waiting until they can legally drop out is what they base your "performance" on.
You are measured on how they perform on tests.
In any other job an employee like that is put on probation and then fired.
The manager of those employees is able to MANAGE and remove unproductive people so that both he and the team are successful.
Teachers cannot do that.
Therein lies the difference.
And with CC and it's new teacher evaluations it was predicted that no sane teacher would want to teach in poor performing schools.
I have friends that are trial attorneys and others that are claims adjusters.
The trial attorneys have only so much control over who makes up a jury and even less over the judge. If they continually lose cases or can't settle, they will be out of a job.
Claims adjusters can't pick their cases. If they can't settle cases they will be out of a job.
These are only two off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more jobs that depend on the way other people act. That's life. Teachers are no different.
Without reading the opinion, I have to say that while I like the outcome, I'm not sure I like the rationale if it is indeed based on a student's "Constitutional right to an education" as stated in the article. There is no where in the Constitution where anyone is given a right to an education.
The best solution to the woes of our educational system is universal vouchers. Give every parent a tax credit for the cost of their children's education and let schools, public and private alike, compete for those customers based on their ability to provide a superior educational experience.
I have friends that are trial attorneys and others that are claims adjusters.
The trial attorneys have only so much control over who makes up a jury and even less over the judge. If they continually lose cases or can't settle, they will be out of a job.
Claims adjusters can't pick their cases. If they can't settle cases they will be out of a job.
These are only two off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more jobs that depend on the way other people act. That's life. Teachers are no different.
Public defender would be a better example, IMO. I don't know as much about claims adjusters, but I have my doubts that it's as cut and dried as you're suggesting.
Without reading the opinion, I have to say that while I like the outcome, I'm not sure I like the rationale if it is indeed based on a student's "Constitutional right to an education" as stated in the article. There is no where in the Constitution where anyone is given a right to an education.
All 50 states have a constitutional right to education in their state constitution.
I have friends that are trial attorneys and others that are claims adjusters.
The trial attorneys have only so much control over who makes up a jury and even less over the judge. If they continually lose cases or can't settle, they will be out of a job.
Claims adjusters can't pick their cases. If they can't settle cases they will be out of a job.
These are only two off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more jobs that depend on the way other people act. That's life. Teachers are no different.
The simile is pretty busted. Attorney's deal with opposing attorney's mostly. They lose to opponents not to their clients. Claim adjusters will not settle cases when opposed by their clients...nor are they expected to.
And one of the interesting things is how we pay attorneys for Clark County NV. We pay prosecutors on a much better pay scale than public defenders. Analogous to paying those teaching in the bad inner city schools less than those in the better suburban schools. So yes the state will do that if allowed.
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