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This is not supposed to be a thread about health care financing. However, I will say, that free/low cost vaccines have been available for 50+ years; the program is now called Vaccines for Children. Lack of funds is no excuse not to get vaccinated. Prior to the VFC program, most state and local health departments provided funds for free vaccines for the indigent. When I worked for a local health department, all the patient had to do was say they couldn't afford the vaccines and they were given for free, no questions asked.
This first link is mobidity, not mortality, but you can research the death rates of these diseases and figure out how many deaths. Surely you've heard of the deaths from polio, and the many more cases of paralysis? http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...69411363,d.aWw
I was just watching a program on PBS Friday night about the ballerina Tanaquil le Clerc, who contracted polio. It was said that a bunch of members of the ballet company were standing in line for the polio shot, and she got out of line, saying she'd get the vaccine "later". She was concerned about having to dance with a sore arm. Later never came; she got polio instead. She lived. How a Ballerina Can Inspire Us to Eradicate Polio | Ksenia Solo
Even 40 years ago, when I was a young nurse working in public health, we said we'd done our job too well. People didn't remember the pre-vaccine era, and had no idea how devastating these diseases can be.
Chickenpox is not a "mild disease" in everyone. In fact, a death from chickenpox at Denver Children's Hospital right around the time the vaccine came out got some doctors who had been previously reluctant to vaccinate against this "mild" disease on the bandwagon.
Hepatitis B can certainly be deadly. It can cause liver cancer. Hep A can make one very sick, and can cause epidemics.
Worrying about what is going to happen in 10 to 20 years is not the issue. We should be more concerned about what's happening now. There is a big pertussis epidemic in California and 10 babies, too young to be vaccinated, have died. There are outbreaks of measles all over the country, most brought in from the Philippines and Europe. No deaths yet, but it's probably a matter of time, and 30% of measles patients have complications including encephalitis, which can cause permanent brain damage.
You need to re read my post. You obviously didn't read it. Most of what you've wrote does not pertain to what I posted. BTW, you can stop with the hyper bowl and fear mongering, I'm not buying into it, you are serving your own agenda.
Vaccine rates in this country are 90%. Be productive and hand out reliable information and stop trying to scare parents into vaccinating. It's not as productive as it is destructive to the family unit.
Parents can make these choices, and they have been. Nothing is perfect, and your mandates won't be perfect either. There will be casualties either way. But stop acting like there is a crisis just to help drug companies pass a vaccine mandate and take away peoples rights because there is not a crisis, most people in our country choose to vaccinate. But there will be a crisis if you strip parental rights away because you are a paralyzed by the thought of illnesses from small amount of un vaccinated children in the U.S.
I disagree. We know that more and more vaccines are added to the schedule as the years go by. If we open to door to disallowing exemptions to the schedule then that will include any and all new vaccines that come down the pike. Many pro-vax people are anti-flu vaccine. What will these people say when the flu vaccine gets added to the schedule? What will people do when gardisal gets added, another controversial vaccine? Both scenarios are possible, if not probable at some point in the future. Parents should have the right to decide for their children. There are many ways to maintain health. Vaccines are not the only way.
First of all, surely you know that "slippery slope" is a logic failure!
Secondly, it is foolish to oppose vaccine mandates for the purpose of public health just because of something that "might" happen at some unforseen time in the future.
Many people are opposed to flu vaccine until they have a full blown case of flu. Then they're first in line the next year. I have been on some other forums where this has been discussed. Gardasil is not controversial except in the minds of the people who object to it. However, these two are not part of the mandatory vaccine schedule for any state or territory, so it's foolish to oppose vaccine mandates for diseases that are present in the community right now.
I'm posting this 10 year old link b/c it has some great statistics. Research and Development of New Vaccines Against Infectious Diseases
**Infectious diseases are responsible for approximately 25% of global mortality, especially in children aged younger than 5 years. . . . THE IMPLEMENTATION OF large-scale and comprehensive national immunization programs, and the considerable successes that were achieved in the eradication of smallpox and the reduction of polio, measles, pertussis, tetanus, and meningitis, were among the most notable achievements of the 20th century. Even in the poorest countries, it has been possible to achieve significant progress in disease control by immunization.1. . . .Conservative estimates place the death toll from diarrheal diseases at 4 million to 6 million per year, with most of these deaths occurring in young children. . . . Rotavirus is the leading cause of severe diarrheal disease and dehydration of infants in both industrialized and developing countries. By age 3 to 4 years, virtually all children have had the disease. Rotavirus is responsible for 25% of deaths associated with diarrhea and for 6% of all deaths in children younger than 5 years of age.**
The article talks about the impending development of a rotovirus vaccine, now accomplished. For those of you who think RV is just a bunch of poopy diapers, read the above again.
There will always be more vaccines in development. Some of us see that as a good thing.
You need to re read my post. You obviously didn't read it. Most of what you've wrote does not pertain to what I posted. BTW, you can stop with the hyper bowl and fear mongering, I'm not buying into it, you are serving your own agenda.
Vaccine rates in this country are 90%. Be productive and hand out reliable information and stop trying to scare parents into vaccinating. It's not as productive as it is destructive to the family unit.
Parents can make these choices, and they have been. Nothing is perfect, and your mandates won't be perfect either. There will be casualties either way. But stop acting like there is a crisis just to help drug companies pass a vaccine mandate and take away peoples rights because there is not a crisis, most people in our country choose to vaccinate. But there will be a crisis if you strip parental rights away because you are a paralyzed by the thought of illnesses from small amount of un vaccinated children in the U.S.
I was hoping this thread could be a little less adversarial than previous immunization threads. Accusing me of not reading your post b/c I disagreed with it, name calling (fear mongering), accusing me of "serving my own agenda", and of helping the drug companies does not help your cause. And please tell me why we should wait until there is a crisis situation to act.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 06-22-2014 at 03:30 PM..
Compared to [your fictional] 200,000, how many people have died due to lack of vaccine preventable illness spread by a child who isn't vaccinated in America? I don't think the numbers warrant a mandate. It's not logical, nor is it an epidemic.
You do not want to vaccinate, but you cheerfully enjoy the safety provided by those in America that do. Despite your wish to believe otherwise, outbreaks in this country of vaccine preventable illness are usually traced to unvaccinated index cases.
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I think letting parents decide if they want to vaccinate is important and numbers show that most parents do vaccinate. America has a high vaccine rate. There is no crisis to warrant a mandate on vaccines.
Most parents do vaccinate, and that is the reason most unvaccinated kids do not get sick. However, the trend for fewer parents to vaccinate and for those who do not vaccinate to cluster in the same communities presents a clear and present danger to community health. that's not fear-mongering, just a statement of fact.
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On the other hand we have a crisis of killing people with our lazy medical practices in America and we should be starting there if our concern is the health of our population.
You have already over-stated this "crisis", which has nothing to do with vaccines anyway. Severe adverse effects from vaccines are extremely rare --- and a lot less likely to happen than severe or fatal complications from the diseases that vaccines prevent.
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We fight for our freedoms in this country, not the welfare of our citizens. We don't have a social government, last I checked we had a capitalist government. So, are mandating vaccines part of our capitalist governments agenda to generate income for big business? Let me guess, why yes, they got lobbied. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/21/bu...erck.html?_r=0
Merck acknowledged that opinion yesterday, saying it would stop lobbying specifically for state mandates, many of which would require girls to be vaccinated before they entered sixth grade. NYTIMES.
Merck has been a financial backer of Women in Government, a national organization of legislators whose members have sponsored some of the state laws to make the vaccine mandatory.
Thank you Merck, for stopping your lobbying for a sexually transmitted disease vaccine to be mandated for our elementary kids, I guess parents made a fuss, they will try again later.
New vaccines for diseases which are not deadly have been added to the vaccine schedule. Chicken Pox and hep. vaccines. Are we suppose to accept any new vaccine put on the schedule? Regardless of the diseases effect on the school population? Will yearly flu vaccines soon be added as a mandate? How many vaccines will our children be mandated to have if this gets ignored in 10 to 20 years from now? How well will they test these before making them mandatory?
Parents losing their rights slowly but surely is not a subject to take lightly. These kinds of mandate could have a ripple effect down the line and further disconnect parent choice from child care.
It makes sense for large drug companies to lobby for mandates, but for parents to agree with that mandate makes little sense to me. I think every parent has the right to make their own informed decisions. Like I've said numerous times regarding these mandates, most parents are smart enough to make informed choices for their kids.
Look at the vaccine rate numbers for evidence of that. Mandates are just lobbying that has worked for big business as usual. I don't think for a second it's because everyone cares about my child's health.
Eventually we won't need parents, our kids can just be born in government tubes.
All of this is just a smoke screen for parents unwilling to accept any risk, no matter how small, from vaccines, and just hide in the herd, protected by those that do vaccinate.
The fear mongers are the ones who insist vaccines are dangerous, including the continuing belief that vaccines cause autism, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
The notion that the doctors and researchers who develop vaccines and administer them do not care about patients is just too obnoxious for words.
First of all, surely you know that "slippery slope" is a logic failure!
Some slippery slope arguments could be illogical but this one most certainly is not. All one has to do is compare vaccine records from one year to the next to see that the number of immunizations has increased and follow the news which talks about new vaccines in development or vaccines that some are trying (flu) or have tried (gardisal) to add to the schedule. Its' obvious that there will be more in the future.
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Secondly, it is foolish to oppose vaccine mandates for the purpose of public health just because of something that "might" happen at some unforseen time in the future.
I oppose the mandate now at this point in time. I think those who support it are the ones who might find themselves regretting it later on down the road when they realize that they gave away their right to exemptions for vaccines that they may not agree with. I see no logical reason to take away these exemptions.
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Many people are opposed to flu vaccine until they have a full blown case of flu. Then they're first in line the next year. I have been on some other forums where this has been discussed.
Most people I talk to who get the flu have had the vaccine. I think you are greatly exaggerating the flu as it hits most people. I've had it before and I've taken care of family members with it. It's certainly not fun but it's not as dire for most people as you tend to make it out in threads like this one. People should have the right to choose to get it or not, no mandate needed.
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Gardasil is not controversial except in the minds of the people who object to it. However, these two are not part of the mandatory vaccine schedule for any state or territory, so it's foolish to oppose vaccine mandates for diseases that are present in the community right now.
It's controversial for many reasons, just one of which is safety of the vaccine vs the benefits. This is a vaccine that people can choose but should never be mandated. People really should listen to the stories of the people who have had adverse reactions and think hard about this vaccine before just running out and getting it for their kids.
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I'm posting this 10 year old link b/c it has some great statistics. Research and Development of New Vaccines Against Infectious Diseases
**Infectious diseases are responsible for approximately 25% of global mortality, especially in children aged younger than 5 years. . . . THE IMPLEMENTATION OF large-scale and comprehensive national immunization programs, and the considerable successes that were achieved in the eradication of smallpox and the reduction of polio, measles, pertussis, tetanus, and meningitis, were among the most notable achievements of the 20th century. Even in the poorest countries, it has been possible to achieve significant progress in disease control by immunization.1. . . .Conservative estimates place the death toll from diarrheal diseases at 4 million to 6 million per year, with most of these deaths occurring in young children. . . . Rotavirus is the leading cause of severe diarrheal disease and dehydration of infants in both industrialized and developing countries. By age 3 to 4 years, virtually all children have had the disease. Rotavirus is responsible for 25% of deaths associated with diarrhea and for 6% of all deaths in children younger than 5 years of age.**
The article talks about the impending development of a rotovirus vaccine, now accomplished. For those of you who think RV is just a bunch of poopy diapers, read the above again.
You are talking about rotavirus in the context of it's global impact. This fails to recognize that in the US we have access to clean water which greatly reduces the risk of dying from diarrhea. The death rate for rotavirus in the US is very low. Things like breastfeeding through an infection, ensuring that a child is getting plenty of fluids and educating parents about the signs of dehydration and when to call the doctor or go to a hospital are responsible for huge declines in the complications from rotavirus. We could do more in this area in terms of educating parents but instead some people want to strictly focus on the vaccine which is absurd considering rotavirus is just one of many childhood illnesses that causes diarrhea.
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There will always be more vaccines in development. Some of us see that as a good thing.
And with this you just prove that the slippery slope is real and people should protect their rights as parents and not cave to fear and allow schools to dictate what parents inject into the bodies of their children.
Someone correclt me if I'm wrong -- I believe there are no "mandatory school immunizations." For reasons of public health, there are mandatory childhood immunizations, and they are typically enforced through school attendance because nearly all children go to school, so that is where it easiest to find them and conduct the immunizations under controlled group conditions.. Children who are home schooled are under the same mandate as children enrolled in schools, to have immunizations as provided for by state public health codes, and the provisions for parents to opt out are the same, whether their children are in school or not.
Poppyseed is correct according to the most recent numbers.
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Now comes a study in the current issue of the Journal of Patient Safety that says the numbers may be much higher — between 210,000 and 440,000 patients each year who go to the hospital for care suffer some type of preventable harm that contributes to their death.
That would make medical errors the third-leading cause of death in America, behind heart disease, which is the first, and cancer, which is second.
I only agree about commendatory vaccinations that cause grave and serious life altering conditions, including death, on a widespread scale, and are considered easily caught/transmitted (highly contagious) by no fault of a person catching/giving it.
That is why I am not for mandatory flu vaccines, but for mandatory polio.
The issue is the parent is making a life long decision for their kid, a decision which can have grave consequences, including death. The child catching one of these disease is outside of the control of the parent, unlike many other decisions a parent can control. This is similar to the issues regarding medical treatment for kids, and those parents who believe prayer will cure cancer; there is a time when society must intervene on behalf of the child because the parent is flat out wrong in their decisions. The line drawn on this society intervention is when grave physical or mental harm, or death, can come to the child.
Someone correclt me if I'm wrong -- I believe there are no "mandatory school immunizations." For reasons of public health, there are mandatory childhood immunizations, and they are typically enforced through school attendance because nearly all children go to school, so that is where it easiest to find them and conduct the immunizations under controlled group conditions.. Children who are home schooled are under the same mandate as children enrolled in schools, to have immunizations as provided for by state public health codes, and the provisions for parents to opt out are the same, whether their children are in school or not.
In order to attend most states require the students' immunizations to be up to date or they will not be allowed to attend until that requirement is satisfied. So, using that criteria, the immunizations are "mandatory", allowing for the various exemptions some have in their codes.
Maryland school systems, under the orders of the MD State Department of Health, did a massive action on immunizations a few years ago, thousands of students were suspended from school until the parents brought their kids into compliance. The students' immunization records are required for registering the student and are part of that student's permanent school record.
See, this just sounds like a cop-out to me. You cannot do anything you want under the guise of, "I'm just practicing my religion!" and expect the educational system to cater to your beliefs. That's not how it works. (well, that is how it works in some states. But I don't think that's how it SHOULD work.)
Not supporting abortion is a serious tenet in many religious beliefs (including ours). It's not expecting people to cater to our beliefs but expecting to hold onto our constitutional rights. I understand that most people think nothing of the Constitution these days (not necessarily meaning you), but last time I checked we still have one.
Again, I'm not anti-vaccine, just anti-certain vaccines.
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