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Old 08-18-2014, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,273,714 times
Reputation: 35920

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAllenDoudna View Post
I believe the post I was responding to said 15, not 12. Plenty of 15-year-olds have jobs. The high unemployment rates have more to do with Governement policies that businesses respond to in very predictable ways. This is discussed at length in another forum; I will merely say that if you want businesses to hire you should vote for the Party of Business. For the purposes of this thread, however, I will merely point out that the Economy will improve and when it does it will make little difference in unemployment statistics whether someone begins looking for work at 18 or 15. Either way it's the same people working the same jobs. It's like debating whether you should eat lunch at noon or at 11:00.
The post you were responding to did say 15. I'm saying if you follow the OP's proposal, the age of job seekers will drop to 12. If you put another cohort of people, in this case, from 12-18, 24 million people if all were to participate in the job force, into the economy. I do not think our economy could absorb that many people easily. Yes, 15 year olds have jobs, but most don't work anywhere near full time. I believe the child labor laws prevent that. We'd have to change our child labor laws too.
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,416,732 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman71 View Post
Ivoryfinger's point still stands - we are covertly & overtly prepping all student for college. That was my initial response to you, pointing out that you are wrong to say otherwise. The latter posts were outlining the evidence, describing what we teachers know and experience daily. So when it comes to the question of whether or not our schools are doing the above...

You
are
wrong.

And we the teachers know it!
I'd rep you but I have to spread the love around...

The problem is college for all sounds like a great idea to most people. Most parents want to think their child is college material so the parents push for college prep. My school has more students in the college prep chemistry class than the lower level chemistry class when it should be the other way around. Only about half of the students I have can (or will some are just lazy) handle college prep chemistry.

We should be prepping kids for three things. College or trade school or immediate entry into the work world. Only about the top 25% should be prepping for college.
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:23 AM
 
4,299 posts, read 2,794,045 times
Reputation: 2132
To help kids to have a shot at their future and be prepared for the real world. Many kids don't realize this but school really is the best years of your life. You are doing something instead of sitting at home playing video games but you can also be a kid and have fun at the same time.
I'm not saying that drop outs can't succeed but it's difficult to find a job that doesn't even require a college degree let alone GED these days. Maybe that would change if kids had the option to not go and it would only give many of us an advantage but I don't know. An education might still be important.
I do think though that there should be a mixture of both. The problem is they focus too much on things that you won't really use once you get out. I think I knew that I'd be nowhere with my life senior year because I would play hooky a lot since I was afraid of my future. There was too much book learning and not much else. I think if they pushed me into a trade or an actual job, I would be fine by now. The work study program that I took wasn't enough. I worked in the school store and in the computer graveyard. Without that push, I decided to take time off school after graduating so I got no work experience and then I went to a crap college without anyone telling me it was the wrong decision. I think what it is is they only give the students general advice/guidance and they don't work enough with you personally. They needed to help me find an option that would work for me.
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:49 AM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,396,349 times
Reputation: 14266
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonta4 View Post
Why do we make kids go to school. Alot of these kids are just wasting taxpayers money. Letting kids choose would lead to better test scores, less distractions, less violence, and just a better environment. It would especially make a change in low income schools. I say if kids want to throw away their life, let them. I say make kids go from k to 7th grade then let them make their own choice.
Because if we let little kids choose between applying themselves and goofing off, they will generally choose the latter and end up like you.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,273,714 times
Reputation: 35920
This thread is not supposed to be about whether high schools encourage kids to go to college in some grand conspiracy with businesses, colleges and who/whatever. (BTW, I saw Elvis today at Kohl's!) It is supposed to be about ending mandatory education after 7th grade. Nor is it supposed to be about what the high school curriculum should require. It's kind of funny, people talking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand, they say high school has been so dumbed down a HS diploma is practically worthless; on the other, they want to dumb down the HS curriculum even more! They want to be able to pick and choose which 25% get to go to college. Who decided that was the correct number? Given the college drop-out rate is about 50%, and has been for at least the last 50 years, including at the "better" colleges like Caltech, that would mean ~12% of adults would have a college degree! Shades of 1968! Educational attainment in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia We are not the same society we were then. I was in college then, not even old enough to be considered an adult. (The age of majority was 21 then.) Most men in my neck of the woods worked in factories. Women did not work much, and if they did, they worked in retail, or admin, or their husband's businesses. A few were teachers and nurses. Most of the nurses did not intend to work their entire adult lives. Their husbands usually made very good money in the steel mills. Those jobs will never be back, despite how much some people on this board wish it would happen.

@Starman71-you would be surprised at how many people think they know just as much as their doctors, let alone these "dumb nurses". Heck, the health care literature is full of articles about the patient being an active partner in making decisions about treatment. It doesn't matter that the doctor went to school for 8+ years; the patient knows as much as s/he does, supposedly! Now I don't mean to say that I think the patient should blindly and blithely follow their doctor's advice w/o question. And of course the patient has the right to choose no treatment. But I do disagree that the patient is just as qualified as the dr. to decide on the appropriate course of treatment.

I don't actually think "medical knowledge" should be taught in HS, but I do think knowing a few principles of biology and chemistry help people understand health/medicine. Maybe people wouldn't make ridiculous statements on CD and other forums about preferring their kids get cancer than a vaccine against it b/c some nutcakes out there post videos of people who can only walk backwards after they get the vaccine and the like. And no, I am not making this up!
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Old 08-18-2014, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Between amicable and ornery
1,105 posts, read 1,780,383 times
Reputation: 1505
Katiana - you are a tough nut to crack. You validate a doctor but invalidate a teacher. These forums crack me up. Some people are good at cut and pasting/hyperlinking specific view points and some are good at expressing their own. Never a dull moment whether reading long winded discombobulated posts or short to the point facts. Thank you all for your view points.
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Old 08-18-2014, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,273,714 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXIALE02 View Post
Katiana - you are a tough nut to crack. You validate a doctor but invalidate a teacher. These forums crack me up. Some people are good at cut and pasting/hyperlinking specific view points and some are good at expressing their own. Never a dull moment whether reading long winded discombobulated posts or short to the point facts. Thank you all for your view points.
What do you mean, invalidate a teacher? Is the OP a teacher? I did criticize a teacher for talking about kids headed to jail, and for thinking that many high school students are too dumb to obtain some college credit. I'm also questioning the conspiracy theory that high schools are pushing "college for all", but that is not the thread topic. I did not copy/paste anything.
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,416,732 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
This thread is not supposed to be about whether high schools encourage kids to go to college in some grand conspiracy with businesses, colleges and who/whatever. (BTW, I saw Elvis today at Kohl's!) It is supposed to be about ending mandatory education after 7th grade. Nor is it supposed to be about what the high school curriculum should require. It's kind of funny, people talking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand, they say high school has been so dumbed down a HS diploma is practically worthless; on the other, they want to dumb down the HS curriculum even more! They want to be able to pick and choose which 25% get to go to college. Who decided that was the correct number? Given the college drop-out rate is about 50%, and has been for at least the last 50 years, including at the "better" colleges like Caltech, that would mean ~12% of adults would have a college degree! Shades of 1968! Educational attainment in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia We are not the same society we were then. I was in college then, not even old enough to be considered an adult. (The age of majority was 21 then.) Most men in my neck of the woods worked in factories. Women did not work much, and if they did, they worked in retail, or admin, or their husband's businesses. A few were teachers and nurses. Most of the nurses did not intend to work their entire adult lives. Their husbands usually made very good money in the steel mills. Those jobs will never be back, despite how much some people on this board wish it would happen.

@Starman71-you would be surprised at how many people think they know just as much as their doctors, let alone these "dumb nurses". Heck, the health care literature is full of articles about the patient being an active partner in making decisions about treatment. It doesn't matter that the doctor went to school for 8+ years; the patient knows as much as s/he does, supposedly! Now I don't mean to say that I think the patient should blindly and blithely follow their doctor's advice w/o question. And of course the patient has the right to choose no treatment. But I do disagree that the patient is just as qualified as the dr. to decide on the appropriate course of treatment.

I don't actually think "medical knowledge" should be taught in HS, but I do think knowing a few principles of biology and chemistry help people understand health/medicine. Maybe people wouldn't make ridiculous statements on CD and other forums about preferring their kids get cancer than a vaccine against it b/c some nutcakes out there post videos of people who can only walk backwards after they get the vaccine and the like. And no, I am not making this up!
The expectation that kids will go to college impacts the number of kids we keep in high school. One hand feeds the other here. If more kids are going to go to college then more kids have to stay in high school and be on a college prep track.
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Old 08-18-2014, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes FL and NH.
4,485 posts, read 6,736,452 times
Reputation: 5885
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman71 View Post
I could continue, but I'm getting bored with this. And each year that passes, I'm getting less inclined to explain these things to others that somehow think they know more of what's going on in education than those who actually work in it.
A fruitless and frustrating debate. As long as the federal government continues to steer local policy decisions and keep the public largely confused and distracted the transfer of education to big business will continue largely unchallenged.
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Old 08-18-2014, 06:39 PM
 
25 posts, read 36,589 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelar75 View Post
Exactly....the way the job market is today kids should be forced to receive a bachelors, good luck getting a job without one.
If they all get bachelors then the jobs will go to the people with masters.
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