Why do so many people have a difficult time with math? (paying, grades)

[Everdeen]

One of the things that I think was extremely helpful to me in college, was not being able to afford a graphing calculator. Having to graph, by hand, every equation to check the solution was extremely powerful. There are those who are rabidly in favor of using technology, but I don't think it's doing us any favors in many classrooms.

[pdxmilw]

I think there are a lot of factors. I was smart as a kid, ended up in Algebra in 7th grade. And I could.not.get.it. My dad spent hours with me, there were tears (probably from us both!)

I managed to pass the class, which is crazy because I had no clue. But apparently my brain just wasn't ready then, because within a few years it clicked, and algebra seems totally obvious and intuitive to me now.

Fast forward to college. I was muddling along with a B in my calculus class, until my teacher pulled me aside and said he saw talent in me, and could I give it a little more effort. I suspect he told everyone that, lol, but I worked hard and I got an A.

The next year, I took Discrete Math. And was totally lost.

So, in my view, sometimes we're trying to teach kids things they're not ready for, sometimes the kids aren't working hard enough, and sometimes, they're just not smart enough.

I do think a "this is how this applies to the real world" approach is important.

[Everdeen]

Originally Posted by theropod

Additions and subtractions are easy.

But I really cannot stand high-numbered multiplications, algebra and calculus. I was awful in high school when it came to this. Maths is pretty much like strenuous exercise for the brain (ouch). I got headaches from it.

With that being said I do consider myself smart. I'm knowledgeable of basic form of music theory, geography, geology, paleontology/evolution and astronomy. But I was just never into maths.

If I could sit down and work with you, I could figure out where the disconnect is. Just so you know, there is very strong evidence that students who study music are very good at mathematics.

I feel badly when people feel that they cannot excel at math. It's one thing to be able to do it, but no like it. That's a personal preference, and that's fine. I sense that it really becomes a blow to a person's perception of their abilities and, and then, their sense of self worth when they feel like they cannot understand mathematics.

It's so needless. It's almost like form of poverty. It has that kind of impact on people's psyche.

[bentstrider]

With all these difficulties though, I still say it's better to fight on, physically and mentally, to get the skills down in order to get into a better life.
Like my thread in the work sub-forum, any new career that doesn't involve my phone exploding during off-time would be a good move.

[ciceropolo]

Originally Posted by marcopolo

It's 50% the way it is taught, 50% innate ability, and 50% effort by the student.

LOL Marco!

I do think there are some who 1) cognitively have difficulty, 2) there are some who because they don't understand the need for constant practice never develop a true level of understanding and then 'surf' to the next class without enough competency to build on that it gets exceedingly more difficult and they get swept away in the tide of 'oh this is too much work', 3) a large amount of poor instruction that lacks experiential practical applications that demonstrate the VALUE of learning math to the student, 4) and those who seemingly have a knack for it.

I think someone prior mentioned this but the foundational underpinnings are memorization of basic series and then recognizing simple patterns (at the computational math levels). I do agree math is like learning a language to some degree, in that learning those basic series (addition / subtraction / multiplication / division tables) is tantamount to learning the "ALPHABET" of math. And the structuring of a problem to solve for the unknown is much like constructing a coherent sentence or syntax. And as the saying goes music is pure mathematics.

My pet peeve in elementary school was showing my work. I used to hate it when a teacher would make me go through showing the 'steps' when I just did it in my head. It set the stage I think for my love hate relationship with Math.

I did extremely well in the old Iowa skills tests all through elementary school, consistently scoring in top percentiles across the board, but when I started junior high it took a turn. I enjoyed Algebra but disliked geometry as the way geometry was taught (the teacher was seriously a mental case - she left the next year). I recall she'd just read from the book and show the same examples from the book. My thought was - I can get the book examples because they are always the easiest, show us how to do the difficult complex problems! It was awful experience one of the only times I ever felt helpless in a classroom.

The guy who taught trig as boring as he was in his drone voice and constant going off on tangents - not the mathematical kind - this guy could be deliberately waylaid by a student asking questions about Sirhan Sirhan and he'd go off on the study of ballistics while most every student got glossy eyed. It was memorable in that as first floor classroom this guy was so out of it a kid climbed out the window and left the classroom while he was droning on. Interestingly I liked Art but not geometry but I think this again goes to how bad the instructor was.

Algebra and Trigonometry I liked because there was the 'solve the puzzle element' and a more readily apparent practical application: What is the missing value to an equation? Or calculate the area of a piece of land or show the angle of trajectory needed hit a spot etc... and such things.

Calculus I did not care for. Business oriented math I did (Statistics etc...). As a kid I'd constantly calculate batting average, shooting percentages etc.. while we played games outside during the summer. I see the dependence on calculators as a negative in the early mathematical years as this is like not learning ones alphabet thoroughly.

I failed Calculus in college and excelled at Statistics but even that, as in elementary school level basics (learning the alphabet) , was a result of hard work and constant practice. I often thought I'd have done better on Calc if it was not first period class, and the instructors could speak in English better. All I can recall at this moment is my thought of, "what the heck did I care to know where a certain point on a curve has to do with any particular vocation I was interested in?" It was frustrating and I switched major after first year.

In grad studies I did fine in Finance and business math / research course as one can (again) more readily see the application of the studies. I think a strong component in getting and keeping the student in a math class interested is showing where the practical aspect of the whatever arena of math they are being instructed has in the real world.

I do like numbers, so I guess math is more natural for me but from working with nieces and nephews and how they are being instructed, it seems as if todays teaching method du jour is to make it more difficult. (Can't think of any examples off top of my head).

I also echo comments of pdxmilw and everdeen.

[Foodmuse]

It's boring.

[augiedogie]

90% is that it takes thinking effort and concentration to learn. Most people are lazy and don't want to take the time to study and learn new things. That's true for adults and children by my observation. I've even seen grown men in grad school show a surprising lack of initiative when it came to their studies. 10% is that it takes concentration, and people like me, with ADD, have a hard time mustering the concentration for a long period of time.

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by Everdeen

It's still relatively new.

True. I had not heard of it until the early 2000s. About 10% of the IEPs I've seen show a math processing disorder.

I was in school in 1974 and no one had discalculia.

I was, too. No one I know of had a diagnosed learning disability back then. There were no special ed classes in my public school at that time.

However, when I look back, I can think of a few kids who must have had an undiagnosed learning disability. (One I saw at a reunion recently that said she had been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult.) The first LD that I was aware of was a friend's sister, who was diagnosed with dyslexia somewhere in the late 70s as a middle school student.

The "symptoms" were not prevalent. All students could read analogue clocks.

Because there were no digital clocks. The problem with students being unable to read analog clocks started in the early 1990s, when digital clocks became much more common (even in schools).

[WildColonialGirl]

Originally Posted by TravelingBluesBrother

Is it truly a difficult subject that only a few people with special brains can master? Or is it just that the entire way it's taught is awful. If you don't excel at math when you are very young, can you ever "catch up" later in life? Have many adults mastered math after being terrible at it as children?

Yes, I caught up. It took the internet. As a child/young adult I would sit in class and be befuddled. They moved fast and there was one way to do everything. In later life I can sit myself down with Khan Academy and any other resources and work through it at my own pace, and figure out my own technique.

[Everdeen]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

True. I had not heard of it until the early 2000s. About 10% of the IEPs I've seen show a math processing disorder.

By itself? Because I have never seen a stand alone, mathematics disorder with no other processing disorder present on any IEP. Not only that, but I'm not entirely trusting of the testing process for IEP's. One example that comes to mind was a parent who wanted disability protections for her child who was not disabled. She instructed him to answer no questions on the assessment. He failed and qualified for special education. I've seen many other abuses of the special education qualification system.

I was, too. No one I know of had a diagnosed learning disability back then. There were no special ed classes in my public school at that time.

That's because it was before IDEA.

However, when I look back, I can think of a few kids who must have had an undiagnosed learning disability. (One I saw at a reunion recently that said she had been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult.) The first LD that I was aware of was a friend's sister, who was diagnosed with dyslexia somewhere in the late 70s as a middle school student.

Post IDEA

Because there were no digital clocks. The problem with students being unable to read analog clocks started in the early 1990s, when digital clocks became much more common (even in schools).

Exactly. When students must learn it, they do.

I have never seen a stand alone, mathematics specific, learning disability. It's always coupled with a more general disability.

When people struggle with math, the reasons are:

1. They may have missed a critical step along the way.

2. They may have been too immature to give it its due attention. *points to self*

3. They may have been lazy. *points to self*

4. They may not understand the appropriate way to approach the learning of mathematics.

5. They may have been frightened of mathematics early on.

6. They may just not have any interest.

7. They may have a disability that throws up a roadblock in other areas as well.

There are other reasons, I'm sure. These are just the ones I thought of off the top of my head.

Math
Counting and calculating rapidly Me
Doing mental mathMe. Especially on the fly.
Learning math concepts beyond the basic math factsIt always takes me longer
Learning multiplication tables, formulas, and rulesMe sometimes
Finding more than one way to solve a math problemMe
Learning math vocabulary
Making comparisons such as more than/less than
Estimating costs like grocery bills
Budgeting money and balancing a checkbookMe, until I was about 25 years old
Telling timeWe've already discussed the reason why
Visual-Spatial SenseMe sometimes
Understanding spatial directions (such as left and right)Too vague. Spacial sense includes many other tests, so to speak.
Navigating in unfamiliar surroundingsMe
Accurately judging speed and distance (when driving or playing sports)Me
Reading and interpreting charts and maps
Mastering number knowledge (recognizing the number of dots on dice without counting)I've seen this, but only when coupled with another cognitive issue
Accurately sensing the passage of time; sticking to a scheduleMe

I must have discalculia, right?

Perhaps, though, that I could improve all of the above if I would practice more?

Also from the same source:

And because some of the “symptoms” listed below also apply to other types of LD’s and/or to Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), which often co-exist with dyscalculia, you may want to review our more comprehensive Interactive Learning Disabilities Checklist to clarify your concerns.

Even they say what I've been saying all along.

As a side note, I love how they write "symptoms".