Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Life isn't really like that. You don't get to "redo" projects. There are deadlines. And if you screw it up they replace you with someone who can do the work and then you get rated as low performing. The deadlines are tight enough without "redos" especially if another group is waiting on your code so they can start their code. And this is the tech industry where being first to market is the highest priority.
The only people who can say that life gives redos and retakes with a straight face are those who have never worked in the real world. Education is about the only place you find retakes. You can retake the ACT or SAT, your drivers test, the Bar exam, the Praxis....but note these are all tests that come at the end of your education. This is NOT real life. Real life does not accept late work and it doesn't give you full credit for redos. It will make you fix your mistakes but they will never forget you made the mistake in the first place and those mistakes will impact raises and promotions and whether or not you keep your job in a downsizing. Those who need redos are the first they let go and you don't get good references for the next job.
First, what the f-ck is an E? When I went to school, grades were A B C D and F.
Anyway, all tasks given in school essentially (should) serve the same function, at least as far as an actual education is concerned: evaluating the student's understanding of the material, measured both by how much they've retained and how they're able to apply it to/in different contexts beyond memorization.
If you ask a student to write a paper about a subject, a position, a book, whatever and they get a bad grade, it's not at all unusual for the instructor to give feedback on where they were lacking and allow them to rewrite it in a way that better demonstrates their grasp of what the paper is meant to explore (barring things like grammar and punctuation).
In the same way, if a student fails a test, it's not uncommon for a teacher to say, clearly you aren't grasping this particular area or understanding the questions being asked. If you want to get your grade up, work a little more on this topic, maybe get a tutor, whatever, and I'll test you again.
Should that second chance be optional or required?
A second chance allows students to recover from legitimate issues they may have had the first time around. Sure, there are students who just don't study because they're lazy. If that's the only reason they did poorly, they'll either continue to be lazy and fail the second time or apply themselves and pass.
If they do the first, that's on them, but if you deprive them of the opportunity to do the second, that's on you. Is it an educator's job to punish a student for being a bad one by denying him any recourse or is it their job to extend opportunities (within reason) for that student to improve?
If a student is an absolute d-ckhole beyond reach, fine, but I don't think students should be approached that way be default just because their grades suck and I don't think all students should be deprived of the opportunity for improvement just because some of them don't care.
There are students who need help, but are too embarrassed or ashamed to ask for it. Doing poorly is as frustrating for them as it is for their educator. Reaching out to them with ways for them to (legitimately) get their grades up, whether it's with a retest or anything else, goes a long way.
There are also students who think they know the material better than they do and are legitimately shocked by the grade they got. Those students deserve the chance to revisit their mistakes so they can understand where they went wrong. Otherwise, you're not educating them - which I thought was the point.
I'd support making a second chance required for certain exams or in certain universal circumstances solely to prevent instructors from deciding on their own which students deserve a second chance and which ones don't because that aids discriminatory education. I've seen enough sketchy teachers/professors in my day to know that they don't all seek to educate all of their students equally.
I say this with the following caveats...
Retesting should only be an option for students who failed or otherwise received a grade below a certain threshold. We really don't need to cater to anxious perfectionists who cut themselves because they got a 99 instead of 100 or an A instead of an A+.
The new test shouldn't be identical to the first one. The point is for students to improve their understanding of the material, not to get the right answers from someone and memorize them.
The new test shouldn't be easier or shorter than the first one.
The new test should be given in a reasonably short amount of time rather than overlapping with the coverage of new material, meaning, don't let them retest in a month. One night to study should be short enough to kick their butts in gear without giving them time to be lazy and flake. Treat the matter with some urgency and move on.
In lieu of allowing students to take the test over, I'd also support another method that isn't uncommon where a student is given an assignment to complete to boost their grade that focuses on the material they proved to be weak in. Again, the point is to educate the student to the best of your ability, not punish them for not doing well the first time.
On that note, those comparing retaking tests in school to redoing tasks at your job or to people like plumbers and doctors getting things wrong are drawing a broken parallel.
The point of school is to educate. The only reason to test how well one has been educated is to assess the need for improvement and how much room there is to improve in order to further educate or to modify said education.
Students aren't there to get it right the first time. Students are there to be taught. If they get it right the first time, good. If they don't, the job of the educator is to establish why and address what can be done to improve their performance.
People who are hired to perform functions aren't students. They're not being hired to learn. They're expected to have already received the proper education, training, and experience to perform their duties without mistakes or at least to the standard set. The two aren't just apples and oranges. They're apples and Honda Civics.
I get it. The argument is the principle of the thing. Kids need to learn that life isn't just going to hand them second chances whenever they're too lazy to put in the effort and that making mistakes and not doing well has consequences even if you're given the opportunity to redeem yourself.
What I want people to think about, then, is whether or not that position coincides with where they stand on it being the school system's responsibility to prepare their child for "life"? Is it the responsibility of academic educators to instill your child with values or is that your job?
I ask that because I often see people speak of school as if it should be sculpted around preparing kids for the harsh realities of life beyond academics, then they get upset when decisions are made that venture into instilling values and ideals they think should be learned at home because the school has no business trying to "raise" their child.
I agree wholeheartedly that we shouldn't seek to educate in a way that encourages laziness or removes the consequence of failure. I simply don't think letting someone take a test over is that serious.
It's the kind of thing that can be structured from top to bottom to ensure that those who truly want to improve will have the chance and resources to do so while those who genuinely don't care still won't care so who cares? I'd support getting rid of the concept of grading on curves and everything that stems from that before I'd support eliminating a student's opportunity to do better.
And before anyone is tempted to make an incorrect assumption, I was a straight A, honor roll, dean's list student. The fact that I didn't require tutoring or a chance to improve my grades doesn't mean that the system should be designed around someone like me rather than attempt to uplift those who are struggling academically for reasons that may very well be outside of their control.
Not all bad students are lazy and that truth gets lost just as easily and often as the truth that it's not always an educator's fault when their student fails.
I always allowed students to retake tests and resubmit work in order to improve their grade. I had a bank of tests for each unit (after teaching 20 years, you accumulate many) and would give them a different test from the first one, but covering the same material. Most of the questions were similar, but the math or analytical ones would be slightly different. I also allowed the to resubmit class projects, lab grades, notebook checks etc. to bring up their grade.
The highest they could get on a retake or resubmit was 89%~even if they did get a perfect score, I felt that the "second chance" grade was fair. The parents and administrators were very much on board with my policy, although I had many colleagues who were adamantly against it. (Felt it was too much work on their part, that I was babying students etc.)
I did find that in the long run it was less pressure on me, because I could turn the tables on the student and tell them that they didn't pursue the opportunity to re-learn and resubmit or retake their work to prove understanding or mastery.
Other advantages....
Eliminates "extra credit" requests...No extra credit, go back and redo or retake something to improve your grade.
If a student had been absent and would plead that they shouldn't have to take the test I would counter with, "take it and see how you do, you can always retake it". Usually they would do well enough and be satisfied and I wouldn't have to chase them down, within a certain number of hours or days to get them to make up the work. If they really bombed it, I would allow a retake and waive the 89% max~
Puts the responsibility on the student to check his/her averages (on line) and determine where improvement can be most beneficial.
The only time they didn't get a "second chance" unfortunately, was with a final or cumulative exam or project, because they were just too close to the end of the year or semester to re-do.
I always allowed students to retake tests and resubmit work in order to improve their grade. I had a bank of tests for each unit (after teaching 20 years, you accumulate many) and would give them a different test from the first one, but covering the same material. Most of the questions were similar, but the math or analytical ones would be slightly different. I also allowed the to resubmit class projects, lab grades, notebook checks etc. to bring up their grade.
The highest they could get on a retake or resubmit was 89%~even if they did get a perfect score, I felt that the "second chance" grade was fair. The parents and administrators were very much on board with my policy, although I had many colleagues who were adamantly against it. (Felt it was too much work on their part, that I was babying students etc.)
I did find that in the long run it was less pressure on me, because I could turn the tables on the student and tell them that they didn't pursue the opportunity to re-learn and resubmit or retake their work to prove understanding or mastery.
Other advantages....
Eliminates "extra credit" requests...No extra credit, go back and redo or retake something to improve your grade.
If a student had been absent and would plead that they shouldn't have to take the test I would counter with, "take it and see how you do, you can always retake it". Usually they would do well enough and be satisfied and I wouldn't have to chase them down, within a certain number of hours or days to get them to make up the work. If they really bombed it, I would allow a retake and waive the 89% max~
Puts the responsibility on the student to check his/her averages (on line) and determine where improvement can be most beneficial.
The only time they didn't get a "second chance" unfortunately, was with a final or cumulative exam or project, because they were just too close to the end of the year or semester to re-do.
See underlined text: This is the best part of retakes. It takes the burden off of me and puts it where it belongs which is on the student. I don't like giving 100%'s for retakes but that's the mandate in my school. I would rather cap the retake at 85%. The logic being that 85% is mastery and A's should be reserved for the students who put the work in the first time.
I agree in theory that when a student learns is not as important as that they learned but I feel like I'm just handing out A's like candy while the bottom of the class falls off.
Do you really agree? The second half of your sentence makes it seem like it really does matter to you when a student learns. A grade should reflect how much of the content a student has mastered.
Do you really agree? The second half of your sentence makes it seem like it really does matter to you when a student learns. A grade should reflect how much of the content a student has mastered.
I said I agree in theory. The theory is that it doesn't matter when a student learns but reality is I find students are getting lazy. They know they can go back and get their A so that's what they do. It's giving A's for retakes that bothers me. 85% is mastery. I think A's should be reserved for those who got it the first time. A B represents mastery too.
If they took the entire test again and got an A, I might feel better about handing out A's but they don't. They take only the questions they got wrong again. I do not feel they are demonstrating mastery of the material on an A level. A student could get 80% right on the first take and 75% right on the second take and get a 95% on the test because they only take the 20% they got wrong the second time. Is that really A work? I see this a lot. A student misses 4/20 questions the first time for an 80% then gets 3/4 of those 4 right on the retake and gets 95% on the test. Even if they get all of them right, I still don't feel that's 100% work. If they had to take the entire test over, I'd feel it was but that's not what we do. You only retest the questions you got wrong the first time so I agree in theory but find reality lacking.
If you retake the ACT you take the entire test. If you retake your driver's test, you retake the entire test. If you retake the Praxis, you retake the entire test. I think students should retake the entire test but I'm out voted here. If they took the entire test and got an A, I'd feel better about it but I'd still feel the students who got the A the first time were superior students. That's why I think there needs to be a cap of 85%. I do think students should have multiple attempts to demonstrate mastery. I don't think they should have multiple chances to get an A.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 11-25-2014 at 04:05 AM..
I said I agree in theory. The theory is that it doesn't matter when a student learns but reality is I find students are getting lazy. They know they can go back and get their A so that's what they do. It's giving A's for retakes that bothers me. 85% is mastery. I think A's should be reserved for those who got it the first time. A B represents mastery too.
If they took the entire test again and got an A, I might feel better about handing out A's but they don't. They take only the questions they got wrong again. I do not feel they are demonstrating mastery of the material on an A level. A student could get 80% right on the first take and 75% right on the second take and get a 95% on the test because they only take the 20% they got wrong the second time. Is that really A work? I see this a lot. A student misses 4/20 questions the first time for an 80% then gets 3/4 of those 4 right on the retake and gets 95% on the test. Even if they get all of them right, I still don't feel that's 100% work. If they had to take the entire test over, I'd feel it was but that's not what we do. You only retest the questions you got wrong the first time so I agree in theory but find reality lacking.
If you retake the ACT you take the entire test. If you retake your driver's test, you retake the entire test. If you retake the Praxis, you retake the entire test. I think students should retake the entire test but I'm out voted here. If they took the entire test and got an A, I'd feel better about it but I'd still feel the students who got the A the first time were superior students. That's why I think there needs to be a cap of 85%. I do think students should have multiple attempts to demonstrate mastery. I don't think they should have multiple chances to get an A.
Well an A should mean they mastered 93% (or whatever the % is in your school) of the material shouldn't it? If retakes are part of the landscape at a school they should be allowed for all students, not just the bottom. As I said earlier, I rejected a school with retakes for my own child. I think school should teach accountability to students. However, if retakes are allowed they should be allowed for ALL students.
My son went to a charter school that had mandatory retakes if the child scores below an 80%. For them an 80% meant that the child was proficient and if they didn't score 80% or above, they had to do a retake, but it wasn't the same test, it was different and usually had more content.
At first, I was so-so about it as a parent, but as time went on, I can see that there are huge benefits for retakes. At that school, they had a "no one fails" mentality, which I originally thought was too wishy washy and new-age-y. But I am now a proponent of it due to the fact that this school served a predominately low income, minority population and many of my son's classmates couldn't even read in 3rd grade. By 6th grade they were the best 6th graders in the state academically. They not only had mandatory retakes but mandatory tutoring for kids who were behind and high achievement, positive attitudes, and a strong sense of self and character were stressed at the school. My son loved going there. He loved his teachers and they him and they were really invested in ensuring he worked to his potential.
We moved out of state and had to leave the school. It was the only thing I miss about that state! His new school is very highly rated too but he told me when he first started going that he didn't feel that his teachers cared about him or his success like they did at the old school and to me that was astounding coming from a 12 year old.
So to sum up, I do think retakes should be allowed. When I thought about it, I was allowed to retake exams in college, I don't see why there has to be a "no retake" rule in primary or secondary school and e specially in the primary and middle grades (K-8) I think that all schools should require kids acheive an 80% or above, especially in math, reading, writing, and science.
Contrary to what some posters have said, life does indeed allow "retakes." Everyone can and should be given the opportunity to improve, especially kids. Sometimes the kids just didn't "get it" the first time and more tutoring and an opportunity to retake an exam they failed will make them see that they can succeed academically in all subjects when they may have had doubts at the outset. My son used to think he was "bad at math." He had to do a lot of math retakes when he first started the charter school. His teachers worked with him and introduced me to Khan academy so he worked on it at home too and when we got to our new state, my son, who goes to a highly rated STEM public school, tested as the best math student in his grade this year. He loves math now and feels it is his best subject even though he initially struggled and had to retake exams. At his current school they use an online based math course that requires kids to re-do all math that they aren't proficient at either, which is one of the reasons why his school is very highly rated. The are the only one in the district that when the kids graduate high school, a majority of the students are above average in math.
The only people who can say that life gives redos and retakes with a straight face are those who have never worked in the real world. Education is about the only place you find retakes. You can retake the ACT or SAT, your drivers test, the Bar exam, the Praxis....but note these are all tests that come at the end of your education. This is NOT real life. Real life does not accept late work and it doesn't give you full credit for redos. It will make you fix your mistakes but they will never forget you made the mistake in the first place and those mistakes will impact raises and promotions and whether or not you keep your job in a downsizing. Those who need redos are the first they let go and you don't get good references for the next job.
You sound pretty bitter.
I have worked in the real world since I was a teen. I also had a pretty rough upbringing by most standards and made plenty of mistakes like most people.
My career is in contract management primarily for construction projects, which includes a lot of project management. And in project management, there are always issues and things that go wrong and in construction, nothing is ever on schedule and things F up a whole lot. In my field, we do have a bias against those who provide poor work, BUT and it is a large but, we are also aware that ish happens and the primary factor in us choosing to give good references or work with a prime or subcontractor again is the way they handled the "ish." If they take fault where fault is due and give us a plan and alternate plans on how they will fix whatever went wrong, we will see them in a positive light.
Nothing is ever black and white. The world is WAY more forgiving that people think and for me, someone who works in housing and who has contact with all sorts of people, company, businesses, suppliers, etc., I know that mistakes always happen and that more often than not, everyone is given an opportunity to better their image. I also know that the majority of the time in my field, when we have someone willing to work with us and fix mistakes, we rate them well and I am called frequently as a reference for companies that have Fd up on our projects. I rate their work, including F ups and I also rate them highly on character and follow through for those who have gone above and beyond to improve their image with me. Those companies are usually always busy and they usually always have a good reputation because they do good work and are dependable and when ish happens, and it always does, you will be confident that that team can deal with it and continue to get the job done.
These sort of "retakes" happen every day in construction. My team and other teams I have worked with in other states and organizations know that you cannot judge and individual or a company by the one or two mistakes they made. Now if they always make mistakes and have a crappy attitude and no-follow through, then that is different. But we are talking about children here and children need encouragement to do better and more often than not, they want to please not only t heir parents but their teachers as well, especially, in my son's case, if they feel that their teacher truly cares about their success. They won't want to "let you down" and will do the best they can on retakes. Some kids are also pretty shy or embarrassed about poor grades and denigrate themselves over their failings and those kids aren't going to reach out to you for help. As adults, we should reach out to them. Educators should especially IMO and maybe because I have worked with a great group of teachers and administrators, both at my son's old school and his current one, I know that these sorts of educators exist.
I have worked in the real world since I was a teen. I also had a pretty rough upbringing by most standards and made plenty of mistakes like most people.
My career is in contract management primarily for construction projects, which includes a lot of project management. And in project management, there are always issues and things that go wrong and in construction, nothing is ever on schedule and things F up a whole lot. In my field, we do have a bias against those who provide poor work, BUT and it is a large but, we are also aware that ish happens and the primary factor in us choosing to give good references or work with a prime or subcontractor again is the way they handled the "ish." If they take fault where fault is due and give us a plan and alternate plans on how they will fix whatever went wrong, we will see them in a positive light.
Nothing is ever black and white. The world is WAY more forgiving that people think and for me, someone who works in housing and who has contact with all sorts of people, company, businesses, suppliers, etc., I know that mistakes always happen and that more often than not, everyone is given an opportunity to better their image. I also know that the majority of the time in my field, when we have someone willing to work with us and fix mistakes, we rate them well and I am called frequently as a reference for companies that have Fd up on our projects. I rate their work, including F ups and I also rate them highly on character and follow through for those who have gone above and beyond to improve their image with me. Those companies are usually always busy and they usually always have a good reputation because they do good work and are dependable and when ish happens, and it always does, you will be confident that that team can deal with it and continue to get the job done.
These sort of "retakes" happen every day in construction. My team and other teams I have worked with in other states and organizations know that you cannot judge and individual or a company by the one or two mistakes they made. Now if they always make mistakes and have a crappy attitude and no-follow through, then that is different. But we are talking about children here and children need encouragement to do better and more often than not, they want to please not only t heir parents but their teachers as well, especially, in my son's case, if they feel that their teacher truly cares about their success. They won't want to "let you down" and will do the best they can on retakes. Some kids are also pretty shy or embarrassed about poor grades and denigrate themselves over their failings and those kids aren't going to reach out to you for help. As adults, we should reach out to them. Educators should especially IMO and maybe because I have worked with a great group of teachers and administrators, both at my son's old school and his current one, I know that these sorts of educators exist.
Nope. You're reading into my post. I'm not bitter at all. I find it comical that some people think that real life allows retakes when it doesn't. It's education that allows retakes. Drivers education, the ACT, the bar exam, the real estate exam....it's just tests that allow retakes.
What the real world does is DEMAND you fix your mistakes but it does not forget you made them. The guy who didn't make the mistake is rated higher. If a contractor makes mistakes on my house, you're darned tooting I'll make them fix it and you can bet I'll never call them again or recommend them to a friend. If you're the employee who has to redo a job, the boss remembers when it's time for promotions and staffing cuts. IRL, retakes are with penalty. It's not like you never made the mistake. I'm not sure what we're teaching kids this way.
Sadly, what I find is that until the retake is taken, the kids aren't investing in the new material. Then they're scrambling. For many of them the retakes are resulting in them being farther and farther behind. They don't seem to benefit the kids who you'd think need them the most. What is happening is we give more A's and E's than ever before. But on the bright side, 20 sets of parents are going to be able to claim their child is a valedictorian this year.
I am not convinced that retakes are for the benefit of the students given we are now failing more students than ever before. On average, grades are better because we don't give B's and C's anymore. They're all A's. But we also give more E's. The bottom of the class doesn't take the test seriously the first time and then they find they're so behind they can't catch up the second time. The top half of the class dot's the i's and crosses the t's to get their A. From where I sit, that seems to be the point of retakes. More kids getting A's only I'm not convinced they deserve them. This is only our second year doing retakes this way but last year we did not see higher final exam grades. One would think that if they are actually learning more that final exam grades would be higher.
Personally, I like an A, B, I system. You get an A a B or an I the first time. If you have an I, you must retake until you get a B but a B is the highest grade you can get. If you want the A, you have to do the work the first time. IMO this is fair because this is more like how life judges you. If contractor A messes up and fixes it he's not an A contractor in my book. Contractor B who didn't mess up is the A contractor. I don't hire the first contractor again. I'd rather hire the person who does the job right the first time as would most employers.
However, I do like that parents don't scream at me anymore when Suzy gets a B. I don't give B's anymore. They don't scream at me when Johnny fails either because I just point out that Johnny was allowed to retake the test. We're 2/3 of the way through the semester and I have a lot of Johnnies who have given up. I don't know what the answer is here but handing out A's like candy doesn't seem to be it. At least not the way we're doing it. I think the bottom of the class would do better if it were a whole test retake. I think we'd see fewer A's as well.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 11-25-2014 at 04:10 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
