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Old 12-11-2014, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
37,708 posts, read 40,711,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Of course every career, academic or not, is helped by having a partner at home who is willing to take on the lion's share of domestic and child rearing duties.

This is an interesting article which sheds a light on academia as well as gender challenges. The jerk who says "That is what you have a wife for" really ticks me off but many men still feel this way.
Can you imagine a grown educated man being proud he has never washed a sock?

Study: Male scientists want to be involved dads, but few are - The Washington Post
I'm lousy at household chores and I'm a woman. I hire someone to clean for me. Just the other day I was hoping I had 2 white socks that turned pink in the washing machine just so I'd have a matching pair.
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,541 posts, read 5,448,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
I'm lousy at household chores and I'm a woman. I hire someone to clean for me. Just the other day I was hoping I had 2 white socks that turned pink in the washing machine just so I'd have a matching pair.
I am, too. I think women who are more theoretical (just like men who are more theoretical) tend to do poorly at these types of mundane activities. I have a friend who tells me she really enjoys cleaning. There is a rhythm in it that she enjoys. I can't even imagine what that feels like. I mean, I like a clean house and all...
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Old 12-14-2014, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
22,548 posts, read 24,300,975 times
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Just MY opinion.....a lot of the reason men excel in science fields is mainly due to
gender-specific genetics.

A much larger percentage of Men, when compared to Women, are just more curious and want to know how things work. Extreme curiosity leads people to delve deeper and deeper into the science of so many things.

If you really think about how far Humans have come since the development of Electricity and Electronics as a tool......you have to give credit almost solely to Men. Men's curiosity and thousands upon thousands of hours spent figuring, tinkering, inventing and toiling away to make and understand things is not solely a Men's endeavor. But, IMHO, Men are more intellectually curious when it comes to science.........that is why they have done so much compared to Women.
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Old 12-15-2014, 06:45 AM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,605,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
One reason more women don't go into engineering is that engineering seems to be a low-prestige job in the US. The parents of girls who are good at math and science don't suggest engineering as a career. So those girls tend to end up a little lost, and pick majors that don't amount to much, a real waste of talent. It's strange the attitudes in the US regarding engineers. In Russia and Germany, engineers are the pillars of society, like lawyers and doctors used to be in the US. They get paid very well.
Maybe this is a regional thing because here in the NE that is not the case. I have many female students go on to engineering (we are a STEM school) and while some have expressed concerns about engineering fields, the notion that a lack of prestige is a deal breaker has never once come up. I even asked our female systems engineering teacher, she had never heard of such a thing.
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Old 12-15-2014, 06:47 AM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,605,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
Just MY opinion.....a lot of the reason men excel in science fields is mainly due to
gender-specific genetics.

A much larger percentage of Men, when compared to Women, are just more curious and want to know how things work. Extreme curiosity leads people to delve deeper and deeper into the science of so many things.

If you really think about how far Humans have come since the development of Electricity and Electronics as a tool......you have to give credit almost solely to Men. Men's curiosity and thousands upon thousands of hours spent figuring, tinkering, inventing and toiling away to make and understand things is not solely a Men's endeavor. But, IMHO, Men are more intellectually curious when it comes to science.........that is why they have done so much compared to Women.
Completely belied by the fact that now, when there is finally some opportunities open to women in science, they are getting more science degrees at every level than men. Sorry but the above is just misogyny wrapped up in pseudoscience. Oh, and for the record it is female scientist telling you that.
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Old 12-15-2014, 06:49 AM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,605,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinawina View Post
I think that's overall true. The difference is in the academic science track, the time where you are expected to put in the most work is during prime childbearing years.

Most get a PhD right after undergrad, and it takes about 5-7 years (22-27/29). This an environment not conducive to dating, marrying, and having a baby. Not very many doctoral programs are, so it's not a situation specific to the sciences. LOL

Then you are expected to do a postdoc for another 4-5 years. This is where it gets dicey. Most postdocs are for very little pay and they essentially run a lab. But research labs in fields like biology, chemistry, etc run almost 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. A university professor is typically in charge as that is the person who won the grant that is paying for the lab, and the postdoc is the grunt who running the day to day work. Their salary is usually being paid for by the grant so they are in no position to buck the system, plus in a lot of the sciences you will NOT get hired in anything science related if you have not completed a postdoc. So, from your late 20s to early 30s you have a low paying job where your boss often requires you to practically live in a lab, and the professor in charge is under pressure to keep the ball rolling because they want to publish, plus they want to show results for the money. Women absolutely DO NOT want to ask for weeks or months off to have a baby n(and many professors are hostile to the idea), and they can't exactly call out to stay home with a sick kid, and they can't bring them to a lab... it's just a awkward time to start a family. Did I mention that accepting a postdoc also often requires moving to a new city?

Keep in mind it is not uncommon for people to have to do more than one postdoc before they find a job.

Then say you land a tenure track professor job. Yay! You have to move again and you are not likely to have a lot of choices as to where. Also, now the expectation is that you will spend the next 7 years earning tenure. This will take up most of your 30s. So now you have to land big grants, conduct research (run your own lab), teach classes, serve on committees, present at conferences, advise students and most of all publish. For most tenure track professors the schedule is busy but you can arrange your own time so it is manageable. BUT, if you have a 24 hour/7 day type lab situation, your schedule is not as flexible and once again, being away from your lab for weeks or months is problematic. If you have a supportive spouse this is doable, or if you are at a teaching college that does not have high research/publishing demands this can work. But other than that...

Once you have earned tenure you can ease back a little and enjoy the flexible professorial life (if you don't want to go for full professorship that is). But that's not going to be until you are, at the earliest, in your late 30s. Starting a family is different for a male, say, biochemistry professor because they usually are not going to have as hard a time finding a woman who is willing to follow them around the country and take charge of the childrearing, plus they don't have to physically bear the children. But women are MUCH less likely to find a man who will do the same (aside from the giving birth that is LOL).

So what women have to do is decide:

1. I will not have children until I've made tenure.
2. I will have kids and my partner/nanny will be the primary caretaker during their first 5-10 years of life
3. I will have kids but I will not be as productive as my colleagues because I will stay involved with my kids, so I may not ever get promoted.
4. I will not have kids.

The situation tends to whittle down an already small pool of women interested in the sciences as a career, and steers them away from competing at the top levels of the field.



That wasn't a "put down", that was me trying to politely indicate that my opinion was not an attempt to personally attack your point of view. You seemed mad that I disagreed. You still do frankly LOL.

It's not that serious. We have both spent time at more than one research 1 university, both have known science professors, and we have 2 different experiences. And the world will keep turning. No biggie!
This is so spot on it should have ended the thread.
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Old 12-15-2014, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
22,548 posts, read 24,300,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Completely belied by the fact that now, when there is finally some opportunities open to women in science, they are getting more science degrees at every level than men. Sorry but the above is just misogyny wrapped up in pseudoscience. Oh, and for the record it is female scientist telling you that.


HUM, the fact is almost all of the revolutionary discoveries and inventions of the 20th century come from men. I am not saying there is no women who have created and discovered great things.

I stand by my opinion, men on average, are more curious about how things work when compared to women.

I can almost bet that most inventions are by people who do/did not have a science degree. Women could have done a lot, even if they were horrifically discriminated against in academia and science jobs.......but honestly, for the most part, they did not.
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Old 12-16-2014, 06:51 AM
 
5,347 posts, read 7,162,755 times
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Colleges have been trying to recruit women to math and science majors in college for years but they still are turned down while women study things like social work,teaching,psychology, and women's studies instead.
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Old 12-16-2014, 08:12 AM
 
13,247 posts, read 33,310,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradPiff View Post
Colleges have been trying to recruit women to math and science majors in college for years but they still are turned down while women study things like social work,teaching,psychology, and women's studies instead.
While there are more women in the majors you've listed, I believe the most popular major overall is actually business and that's almost a 50-50 split. Most Popular College Majors For Women - Forbes

The second most popular major for women is Health Professions and Related Clinical Sciences. Women's studies, btw, is not in the top ten.

The link from Forbes is not recent, so I looked for something newer and found this interesting article: Percentage of Bachelor's degrees conferred to women, by major (1970-2012) | Randal S. Olson

It seems that women are indeed pursuing Science type majors, but not the ones that lead to Science research. Looks to me like they are more focused on getting a job in four years.
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Old 12-16-2014, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,022,892 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
HUM, the fact is almost all of the revolutionary discoveries and inventions of the 20th century come from men. I am not saying there is no women who have created and discovered great things.

I stand by my opinion, men on average, are more curious about how things work when compared to women.

I can almost bet that most inventions are by people who do/did not have a science degree. Women could have done a lot, even if they were horrifically discriminated against in academia and science jobs.......but honestly, for the most part, they did not.
How condescending! As for inventions of the 20th century, most of these were invented by the Baby Boomers. I can tell you, when DH was involved with the physics dept of the U of I, it was ALL men. I believe he told me that in the time he was there (10 years, 1970-1980) there was one woman in the department. As for not needing a science degree, while that may be true for some early stuff, nowadays to "invent" something new in computers, one almost has to have a degree or at least some college education in the field.

A woman invented the dishwasher. Why would men care? Back in those days, they didn't get their hands wet doing dishes.
Josephine Cochrane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradPiff View Post
Colleges have been trying to recruit women to math and science majors in college for years but they still are turned down while women study things like social work,teaching,psychology, and women's studies instead.
Toobusytoday answered that well, but I'll add. Medical schools are about 50% women these days. Now medicine is one male profession that has long been open to women, at least a little bit. Law has a lot of women.
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