When did American Public Schools start to go down hill? (college, counselors)

[cleveburg]

October of 1979 . . . President Carter created the "Department of Education." Then, to add insult to injury, President Bush created the "No child left behind" law that was signed in January 2002.

Education is only a local and community-based issue (we can even argue state). When more government gets involved, you get more bureauocracy, outrageous / uncontrolled spending, political correctness, and the inability for families to control their own community choices.

To make it worse, let's face it, the family has become broken. Education truly starts at home. Parent's making their children do homework, not skip school, etc, etc. Once there is no discipline, it's all thrown out the window.

It is a proven fact that a private school can educate each student for *less* money than the public system. Can we say Unions? Administrative abuse? Each time a community is taxed and promised a better educational system, does that really happen? No.

Government involved in our educational system is against the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution. It clearly does not authorize Congress to legislate education within the independent/sovereign states who are a "Republican form of government."

I know Ronald Reagan wanted to abolish it immediately, but I believe at that time the democratically controlled Congress said "No way." However, this is not a Dem. vs. Rep. issue, as Republican's had controlled Congress and didn't eliminate it either. Bush made it worse!

[crbcrbrgv]

Originally Posted by questioner2

Everyone I talk about tells me how terrible the public schools are now a days. They tell me "in their day" our public education system was much better. The kids minded their teachers, people paid attention in class and the quality of instruction was much better.

If you are a baby boomer or older, do you think the school you went to "in your day" is better than what your kids have today?

If this is the case then there must of been a glory day in America's history when schools were great. In what era was our public education system in good shape?

They started going downhill when the parents lost control of their children.

[texdav]

IMO;the end started in the 60's ;no rules apply generation.

[ProLogic]

Theres going to be a PTSA meeting next week in the district to see how the budget cuts will affect high school students next year. We just got a 10 Million dollar stadium, a new gym, new library and a new center of the arts. Yet we had no paper last year -.-'

[Lady Jay]

There Are 799 Public Schools In Nyc. I Have Not Extrapolated The Total Number Of High Schools In Nyc. I Do Know There Are Only 2 Good High Schools In The Bronx Which Are Specialized Schools.
The Others Rank From 700 To 799. Taft High School Ranks 799 And Also Hold A Reputation For A Teacher Being Killed After Being Pushed Out A Window.

The Bronx Was Built On Farmland And It Seems That Children Who Attend Regular Schools Are Treated Like Pigs. How Are These Children Going To Ave A Fair Chance When It Is Not Imperative To
Educate Them Properly?

Gang Activity And Constant Fighting Is What Takes Place In These Schools. The Teachers Are Not To Blame Nor Can The Parents Be Held Totally Accountable.
You Have Innocent Intelligent Children Entering Foreign Arenas
With The Pure Intent Of Obtaining A Free Education. Yet These Bronx Institutions Are Comprised Of Negativity Where The Students Are Now Coersed To Dwell On How They Will Defend Themselves. How Can They Focus On School Work?

I Agree That The Children Of Today Are Much Different Then Those Of My And My Parent's Generation.
I Will Not Give Up On The Children Of Our Future Neither Should Any Of You.

[cpg35223]

Lots of factors really:

1) I don't think there was a golden age of American education, chiefly because there was a huge underclass in this country that never got a fair shake. So when inner city blacks, et al, actually started getting measured for educational attainment it drove the scores down.

2) When social engineering became more important than fundamentals. My kids go to one of the top 20 public schools in the country. Yet you wouldn't believe how much of their time is consumed with drug education, social awareness, etc. etc. etc.

3) The macroengineering of schools. Bigger is definitely not better. Yet we have layers and layers of bureaucracy in place that contribute absolutely nothing to the school's core mission of teaching children.

Case in point? I'm in marketing, and I was invited by an inner city school to review the portfolios of kids interested in marketing. I have to say that I was blown away by the experience. For three hours, I talked to these juniors and seniors, gave advice, and just knew these kids would do great.

Then the certification person from the state board of education walked into the room. It was as if the Angel of Death had appeared in the doorway. She never spoke to the kids, she never looked at the kids. Instead, she, the teachers, and three representatives of the city's marketing industry spent the next two hours looking through binders to ensure that all the proper forms had been filled out. It had to have been one of the most depressing moments of my life knowing that these beautiful kids and their heroic teachers were taking a back seat to the needs of bureaucracy.

4) Lower standards in behavior. Kids mold themselves to the expectations of others. If you tolerate rudeness, then they will push the boundaries even further. I'm no Prussian, but expecting fundamental respect from students for the rules creates an environment for learning.

5) IT'S ALL ABOUT PARENTS. Show me a kid who makes lousy grades and I'll show you a lousy parent. Sorry if I offend. But kids do not learn by sheer osmosis. The teachers cannot simply open their skulls and pour in the knowledge. The parents have to know what's going on every day in their children's lives. They need to know the homework assignments. They need to be consistent in their expectations of what their kids are supposed to do. If a problem arises, it needs to be dealt with immediately, not just farmed out to a tutor. And if you are skipping parents' night at the school or missing parent-teacher conferences, then you should be horsewhipped. Because a united front between parent and teacher is probably the biggest difference in having an A-B student or having a C-D-F student.

With three kids of my own, I'm amazed at how many parents just check out once their kids hit adolescence. That's when the most attention needs to be paid to what kids are doing.

[NCN]

I think if you will look at the statistics, you will find that the public schools started going downhill when prayer was taken out. As a matter of fact, I once heard a lecture on the subject and the person doing the lecture had statistics that proved that point. If you are in doubt of this, don't ask me to prove it. Look it up for yourself. I have no doubt that this is true.

[ontheroad]

I doubt we ever had a good school system. Whilst in school the system of teaching changed frequently, and in particular, various philosophies were recommended and put into effect on how to best teach how to rea. Years later, the same flip-flop was tested and applied to mathematics.

Fundamentally, public education has always been taught in a rather haphazard way, with shifting trends and never to the best and brightest. Critical thinking has long been absent from most, if not all, public school curriculum and mediocrity prevails.


One of my children was educated abroad, and when he applied to university, he was given 2 years or perhaps 3 years credit because he had taken subjects not offered or offered differently in the States.

[Lillietta]

Cleveburg got it right, for all the reasons he/she cited, in particular, government interference and broken family structure - divorce, drugs. I might add that in white middle-class suburbs across the country you see many parents spoonfeeding their kids whereas teachers are attempting to make them more independent, causing conflict with the parents, i.e. these parents are babying their children and, as such, babying themselves.

[Lillietta]

Originally Posted by cpg35223

Lots of factors really:

1) I don't think there was a golden age of American education, chiefly because there was a huge underclass in this country that never got a fair shake. So when inner city blacks, et al, actually started getting measured for educational attainment it drove the scores down.

2) When social engineering became more important than fundamentals. My kids go to one of the top 20 public schools in the country. Yet you wouldn't believe how much of their time is consumed with drug education, social awareness, etc. etc. etc.

3) The macroengineering of schools. Bigger is definitely not better. Yet we have layers and layers of bureaucracy in place that contribute absolutely nothing to the school's core mission of teaching children.

Case in point? I'm in marketing, and I was invited by an inner city school to review the portfolios of kids interested in marketing. I have to say that I was blown away by the experience. For three hours, I talked to these juniors and seniors, gave advice, and just knew these kids would do great.

Then the certification person from the state board of education walked into the room. It was as if the Angel of Death had appeared in the doorway. She never spoke to the kids, she never looked at the kids. Instead, she, the teachers, and three representatives of the city's marketing industry spent the next two hours looking through binders to ensure that all the proper forms had been filled out. It had to have been one of the most depressing moments of my life knowing that these beautiful kids and their heroic teachers were taking a back seat to the needs of bureaucracy.

4) Lower standards in behavior. Kids mold themselves to the expectations of others. If you tolerate rudeness, then they will push the boundaries even further. I'm no Prussian, but expecting fundamental respect from students for the rules creates an environment for learning.

5) IT'S ALL ABOUT PARENTS. Show me a kid who makes lousy grades and I'll show you a lousy parent. Sorry if I offend. But kids do not learn by sheer osmosis. The teachers cannot simply open their skulls and pour in the knowledge. The parents have to know what's going on every day in their children's lives. They need to know the homework assignments. They need to be consistent in their expectations of what their kids are supposed to do. If a problem arises, it needs to be dealt with immediately, not just farmed out to a tutor. And if you are skipping parents' night at the school or missing parent-teacher conferences, then you should be horsewhipped. Because a united front between parent and teacher is probably the biggest difference in having an A-B student or having a C-D-F student.

With three kids of my own, I'm amazed at how many parents just check out once their kids hit adolescence. That's when the most attention needs to be paid to what kids are doing.

This is all too true also. Maybe schools the 1950s were good for white people, but it was not good for African-Americans with segregated schools in some areas. Thanks for adding these truths.