When did American Public Schools start to go down hill? (classrooms, money)

[daschreck]

Originally Posted by truthhurts

Great question and good debate, but this is such a funny and easy question to answer on so many statistical levels.

For starts IMO there has never been a hey-day in public education. If anything children today are 30x smarter than children were in the 50's,60's,70's and to a smaller extent the 80's. Hell, todays kids academically would run circles and lap those same kids of the 50's and 60's three or four times academically.

Remember most kids in those days did not even graduate high school let alone in some parts of the country finish middle school. Today we have 80% of the children that start school graduate from at least high school. In the 50's and 60's it was less than half.

I think there's a big difference in what is being learned today versus the behavior of children today versus yester years. Attempting to compare academic achievement with behavior is not a legitimate argument to make in terms of "are schools worse now than in previous years."

I guess a better question would be to ask about behavior. Is it better now than in previous years? and like many of you have said the answer is a resounding and obvious no. Kids in the 50's, 60's, and some in the 70's (although 70's might be a strech lol) were probably better behaved than children are today.

However, are they smarter? Hell no, not by a long shot. If you put the kids from the 50's and 60's in a school system today the US government would be shutting the system down because it would not meet the "No child left behind standards."

I think we should be comparing ourselves in education to other countries, not to former generations of education.Why compare to previous generations when our environment is so vastly different today, that is an unfair comparison.

Behavior is a part of education because teachers have to have respect in order to teach. That is what I see as a major behavioral problem today.

I see to many parents not knowing how to discipline their children,wanting to be their child's friend and trying to teach equality at an inappropriate early age, and than they don't understand why they don't have their child's respect, and why their child doesn't respect any authority,like their teachers.

[greenvillebuckeye]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye48

We are spending more money on public education than we have in the history of this country. Yet globally, standardized test scores put us in the middle of the pack among many third world countries.

All while private schools do much, much better with much, much less money.

less money? umm have you seen private school tuition these days? it's more than instate university tuition.

Tuition & Fees : Christ Church Episcopal School

[Betsy84]

Originally Posted by LaoTzuMindFu

Mom2Feebs is right. I think this is when it started, attitudes that are taught in the home not in the schools. I think schools and teachers are fine and are doing the best with what they have, but the problem is really with the parents not being involved with their children's education.

I haven't read all the posts, but while this may be part of the problem, it isn't the only factor.

I was STUNNED to see how the basics were ignored in the early elementary grades especially for my first kid.

[jasper12]

1973. Leave it at that.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by greenvillebuckeye

less money? umm have you seen private school tuition these days? it's more than instate university tuition.

Tuition & Fees : Christ Church Episcopal School

Agreed. Here's a sampling from the metro Denver area, and mind you, these are relgious schools:

Admissions @ Holy Family High School, Broomfield, Colorado
$8300 for Catholics registered in a parish; $9600 for non-Catholics and Catholics who are not registered in a parish

Lutheran High School - FAQs - Excellence in Christian Education (http://www.lhsparker.org/faq.html - broken link)
$8600

Denver Christian High School - Denver, Colorado/CO - Private School Review
$9000

Mullen High School (Catholic)
$11,250

Colorado Public Schools State and Local average:

http://www.schoolfundingfairness.org...0release-1.pdf
$8727

[TXRunner]

I see this has been rehashed. The bottom of the barrel myth. If you look at real facts, there are only two international tests, the TIMSS and the PISA. We score very well on both and are not amongst 3rd world countries. We have beat out many 1st world European countries. The Asian countries represented in the TIMSS and most of the PISA ones are extremely small, wealthy nations or only one wealthy city in a large Asian nation. We actually score much higher than the typical Asian country or regions in Asia where they test average populations and not just wealthy students.

Anyway, keep bashing education if it makes you happy and just ignore real facts.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by daschreck

I think we should be comparing ourselves in education to other countries, not to former generations of education.Why compare to previous generations when our environment is so vastly different today, that is an unfair comparison.

Behavior is a part of education because teachers have to have respect in order to teach. That is what I see as a major behavioral problem today.

I see to many parents not knowing how to discipline their children,wanting to be their child's friend and trying to teach equality at an inappropriate early age, and than they don't understand why they don't have their child's respect, and why their child doesn't respect any authority,like their teachers.

IMO, this is at the very heart of what is wrong with education. Couple this with the fact we do not hold our children accountable for learning (it's everyone elses fault but theirs if they don't learn) and you have a prescription for disaster.

The one thing I have really struggled with in switching from engineering to teaching is the lack of respect. I went from a highly respected career to one where respect is zero. I'm the hired help to the parents and, openly, disrespected by students who know that I will be blamed and seen as an ineffective teacher if they fail.

Don't get me wrong, I have some kids who are great but I have too many who fit the description above.

[halfwitwanderer]

Originally Posted by TXRunner

I see this has been rehashed. The bottom of the barrel myth. If you look at real facts, there are only two international tests, the TIMSS and the PISA. We score very well on both and are not amongst 3rd world countries. We have beat out many 1st world European countries. The Asian countries represented in the TIMSS and most of the PISA ones are extremely small, wealthy nations or only one wealthy city in a large Asian nation. We actually score much higher than the typical Asian country or regions in Asia where they test average populations and not just wealthy students.

Anyway, keep bashing education if it makes you happy and just ignore real facts.

I think (this is my opinion) that many people's anecdotal and statistical experience converge to the conclusion of a failing education system, because, well it is failing.

As for the TIMSS study (I'm not too familiar with PISA), if you look at recent data, you are correct in saying that we do beat out 3rd world countries if you look at the overall scores (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) - Average mathematics scores of fourth- and eighth-grade students, by country: 2007), but a good question to ask would be, why are we consistently beaten by countries whose societies are not faring nearly as well as ours (i.e. - the Asian countries + Russia)? These studies only go back to 1995, but I am curious as to what results dating prior to that would show.

Also, if you read the FAQs on the TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) - Frequently Asked Questions About the Assessment), there are a number of subtleties that makes you question the validity of these studies, such as:

(#7)
[LEFT]"Once a sample of schools is selected and schools agree to participate, they are asked to provide a list of students of a particular age within the school or a list of a particular kind of classes (for example, 8th grade math classes or 4th grade classrooms). From those lists, a group or whole class of students is then randomly selected for assessment."[/LEFT]

All I'm saying is, be wary of studies that say this or that, especially in fields that aren't so clear-cut.

[dazzleman]

Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs

The minute parents put their kids so high on a pedestal that no one could reach them, including the parents themselves, is about when the chocolate ice cream turned to poop.

This, x 1000.

What we have is a cultural problem.

[felinius]

Originally Posted by halfwitwanderer

but a good question to ask would be, why are we consistently beaten by countries whose societies are not faring nearly as well as ours (i.e. - the Asian countries + Russia)? These studies only go back to 1995, but I am curious as to what results dating prior to that would show.

I'm a bit confused by your statement "not faring nearly as well as ours." Does this mean that they're not as good as ours? I could have sworn that Hong Kong, Japan and Korea are doing just fine.

Originally Posted by dazzleman

This, x 1000.

What we have is a cultural problem.

For Asians, it's that you can always do better. Both bring problems, but in academics, one idea is better...


I had an experience at an abroad American International School, and was thusly kicked in thine behind because of how far ahead the material was for the grade. I'm unsure if this is how private schools are in inside the US. Looking at the tuition now, it's anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 per year depending on your grade.

We were enrolled in two languages by default, had clubs, and many different events we all took a part in. I never had this experience in the public schools in the USA, unfortunately. I'm guessing that the funding for the same experience in the US just isn't there. If we could bump our per-student-spending from $8.6k to $10k we could possibly see an increase in quality.