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Old 02-16-2015, 02:24 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 3,401,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penny1969 View Post
I bet it would just floor you speechless to meet any minority but especially a black or Hispanic who had an I.Q. higher than their white peers, scored higher on the ACT's/SAT's, had gone to "gifted and talented" elementary schools and a magnet college-prep high school, where they also outscored most of their white and Asian peers on a regular basis....and in Math and the sciences, no less.

People quoting statistics like this, and espousing the beliefs that follow, are the root of American prejudice and racism. The root reason for the surprise from most Americans that "not all Ivy League graduates are White or Asian."

Yes, the ROOT. The early years of life are where it all STARTS.

NO! Not at all. What gives you the right to make such an assumption? I know several Ivy League graduates who are Black. Evidently you don't know much about statistics. The statistics say nothing about any individual, they concern only the general populations.

The simple fact is that the mean values of the distributions of Black and White intelligence are separated by about one full standard deviation. It's simply a fact. Yes, there are Black PhDs in mathematics -- but the fact is that the number is negligible relative to the size of the Black population. Some time ago, the Chronicle of Higher Education had a story about the demand for Black math professors to satisfy affirmative-action concerns. On the same page they had the photographs of four Black people -- these were the entire doctoral output from American Universities that year in math, and two were in Math Ed rather than real math. It is also a fact that a Black mathematician has never won the Fields medal (the equivalent, more or less, of the Nobel prize, which is not awarded in math).

These are simply facts. It's unfortunate that this subject cannot be discussed without resorting to accusations of racism. These kinds of accusations throttle any honest attempt to remedy the situation by first understanding what is actually going on.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:03 PM
 
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The solution lies in making education great for all kids regardless of zipcode, class, etc.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:06 PM
 
1,433 posts, read 2,022,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
NO! Not at all. What gives you the right to make such an assumption? I know several Ivy League graduates who are Black. Evidently you don't know much about statistics. The statistics say nothing about any individual, they concern only the general populations.

The simple fact is that the mean values of the distributions of Black and White intelligence are separated by about one full standard deviation. It's simply a fact. Yes, there are Black PhDs in mathematics -- but the fact is that the number is negligible relative to the size of the Black population. Some time ago, the Chronicle of Higher Education had a story about the demand for Black math professors to satisfy affirmative-action concerns. On the same page they had the photographs of four Black people -- these were the entire doctoral output from American Universities that year in math, and two were in Math Ed rather than real math. It is also a fact that a Black mathematician has never won the Fields medal (the equivalent, more or less, of the Nobel prize, which is not awarded in math).

These are simply facts. It's unfortunate that this subject cannot be discussed without resorting to accusations of racism. These kinds of accusations throttle any honest attempt to remedy the situation by first understanding what is actually going on.



I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the Nobel Prize when there issues related to how they pick and coose winners. There are many scientists of color who were overlooked due to their color in the last century.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
26,878 posts, read 28,170,320 times
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Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Yet Black immigrants seem to be doing well or at least better than Black Americans. Race isn't the full picture here.
Race is not an innate trait. You find the same pattern for groups that are placed at the bottom tier of society. In other countries the race at the bottom tier are the same people that are "doing well" in other places.

The black immigrant argument is bs on a lot of levels. Most are coming from well off and educated families. You also end up with extra motivated people choosing to come over. Unfortunately for "regular black folks" it is expected to have extraordinary luck, motivation and resilience just to have average success.

I lucked out and had educated parents and a middle class upbringing in a middle class neighborhood. I had a shortcut to the easier path. Still doesn't save me from getting stereotyped when I walk in the door.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
26,878 posts, read 28,170,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
NO! Not at all. What gives you the right to make such an assumption? I know several Ivy League graduates who are Black. Evidently you don't know much about statistics. The statistics say nothing about any individual, they concern only the general populations.

The simple fact is that the mean values of the distributions of Black and White intelligence are separated by about one full standard deviation. It's simply a fact. Yes, there are Black PhDs in mathematics -- but the fact is that the number is negligible relative to the size of the Black population. Some time ago, the Chronicle of Higher Education had a story about the demand for Black math professors to satisfy affirmative-action concerns. On the same page they had the photographs of four Black people -- these were the entire doctoral output from American Universities that year in math, and two were in Math Ed rather than real math. It is also a fact that a Black mathematician has never won the Fields medal (the equivalent, more or less, of the Nobel prize, which is not awarded in math).

These are simply facts. It's unfortunate that this subject cannot be discussed without resorting to accusations of racism. These kinds of accusations throttle any honest attempt to remedy the situation by first understanding what is actually going on.
IQ tests are not the end all be all. They measure what you are exposed to. And results can change. There are some studies that say poor kids hear 10% of the words more affluent kids do. How do you think that impacts vocabulary later on. IQ tests measure socialization and are easily manipulated by education.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mistertee View Post
I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the Nobel Prize when there issues related to how they pick and coose winners. There are many scientists of color who were overlooked due to their color in the last century.
Baloney. The winners are chosen in Sweden, not the US. There were hardly any scientists "of color" in the last century. I personally knew the first Black to be awarded a PhD in chemistry by Johns Hopkins (Dr. Tony Dent, who now teaches at Morgan in Baltimore).
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:46 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 3,401,517 times
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Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
There are some studies that say poor kids hear 10% of the words more affluent kids do. How do you think that impacts vocabulary later on. IQ tests measure socialization and are easily manipulated by education.
It seems like we agree -- for whatever reason, they are indeed less intelligent. Your explanation is the intake of words. Mine is, well, I really don't know why. But the end result is the end result, which complicates education. People often try to sidestep the question "Is there a difference?" by a convenient digression to "This is because of . . .."

Regarding socialization -- baloney.
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Old 02-16-2015, 04:05 PM
 
11,614 posts, read 19,724,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penny1969 View Post
I bet it would just floor you speechless to meet any minority but especially a black or Hispanic who had an I.Q. higher than their white peers, scored higher on the ACT's/SAT's, had gone to "gifted and talented" elementary schools and a magnet college-prep high school, where they also outscored most of their white and Asian peers on a regular basis....and in Math and the sciences, no less.

People quoting statistics like this, and espousing the beliefs that follow, are the root of American prejudice and racism. The root reason for the surprise from most Americans that "not all Ivy League graduates are White or Asian."

Yes, the ROOT. The early years of life are where it all STARTS.

Statistics that measure the IQ of populations show what they show. We can debate the causes from now until the end of time but the fact remains that these tests show what they show.
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Old 02-16-2015, 04:16 PM
 
1,692 posts, read 2,782,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
Clevelander, you seem to assume a priori that integration is the most important function of the public schools, rather than education. If education is the most important function, schools will remain more or less segregated. Like it or not, there is just about a full standard deviation in IQ between Black kids and White kids, and a large component of intelligence is hereditary. I don't know why this is so (and I don't think that anybody reading this does either), but thems is the facts. The difference is accentuated by the kinds of values and virtues that the kids come from.

You can see the implications of this in my local school district. We attempted to integrate by offering magnet schools in dysfunctional neighborhoods to lure White children. These same schools also serve as the base school for the local constituents. Same school, same teachers, same level of funding. But in order to make the whole thing work, where "work" means educating rather than social engineering, students are grouped according to ability and accomplishment. This "re-segregates," within the magnet school. The White component does wonderfully well, and the Black component "graduates" barely literate.

It might be useful to remember that other races also have rights -- for example Whites and Asians -- and that their children are just as deserving of an optimal education as Blacks'. It is not in anyone's best interest to have the school systems dragged down in order to accommodate the least able students simply in the name of "integration."
I couldn't have said it better myself. My son, who is white, attends the very type of middle school you just described. To add to the burden the teachers already face, several underperforming schools in the surrounding area were closed down a year or two ago, and hence the underperforming students were "dumped" into the magnet school. Last year, some of the class sizes were outright ridiculous. I'm talking 200 in a class, so they had to meet in the auditorium in lieu of a regular classroom. You can't tell me that won't interfere with a higher performing student when he's mixed with a loud crowd of students where nobody can get any personal attention whatsoever. Your assessment is dead on.

My own personal observations are that no matter what the economic, racial or any other status is that you want to measure by, a child does far superior when he or she has superior parental involvement. That involvement, in my observation only, is severely lacking in the inner city areas. Only with strong parental guidance which is reinforced by teacher involvement (a major challenge with all they have on their plate already!), can a child be expected to perform to their maximum levels.

SS
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Old 02-16-2015, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Webster Groves, MO
1,104 posts, read 1,835,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
Those neighborhood demographics also include low socioeconomic status of the residents. If all your students magically became white tomorrow, they'd still have the very same problems tomorrow as they have today. Poverty, family dysfunction, substance abuse, mental problems, and poor attitudes toward society, work, and education are not exclusive to blacks or Hispanics or Native Americans but are found generally among poor people whatever their color or ethnicity. You see similar patterns among white students from low socioeconomic families as you do among black students from the same kinds of families.

People of color are just easier to see by judgmental individuals with agendas, especially because they tend to be concentrated in specific urban neighborhoods, so it's easier to say it's "black/Hispanics are poor students" rather than admit that it's poverty and its attendant pathologies that are the real problem. The fact is, in my county, at least 95% of the students are white, an awful lot of them are from poor families, and most exhibit the same problems that black students in poorly performing schools exhibit. That they're scattered among 10-12 small school districts, their impact on each district is diluted.

If blacks and hispanics were more evenly scattered among a metropolitan area's population, the impact of the number of poor students, whatever their color, would also be scattered. Unfortunately, the geography of most large urban metros doesn't allow that. Poor people have limited choices of where they can afford to live.
Some of what you say is true but not all of it. I have taught in low-income rural predominantly white schools, diverse schools with many lower income Hispanic students mixed with white students, and predominantly African-American schools. The behavior and disinterest in school is far more pervasive in the predominantly African-American schools. I agree that it's not a racial issue in the respect that there are plenty of African-American kids that have great parents that raise their kids to care about school. But the culture of inner-city black America tends to be one of disrespect towards authority and institutions. The parents have a victim complex. This is not their fault in my opinion but rather a side effect of white people disenfranchising them for years. Slavery was bad enough. Then when we finally rid ourselves of that horrible institution how do we welcome our African-American brothers and sisters into society? We flee to the suburbs to get away from them. This creates inner-city ghettos that are predominantly African-American, poor, and isolated to develop as a sub-culture in our country. We have no one to blame but ourselves (meaning white people).

I do agree that poor white students will generally do worse in school than middle-class and affluent black students. But that is because the middle-class and affluent black students don't live within this inner-city culture. This culture almost speaks a different language. When a student in my class starts talking to a friend in their street lingo I genuinely do not understand what they are saying. These kids learn to talk this way and then go to school and are taught to read a language that they don't speak. I used to think Ebonics was a racist myth. It is not.

I do agree that if low income blacks and Hispanics were more evenly spread it would be helpful. I think integration would have a very positive impact on education. I've seen first-hand in situations where black students were exposed to mainstream culture they flourished and adjusted very well. And the classrooms were much more manageable.
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