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Old 02-16-2015, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,798,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penny1969 View Post
I bet it would just floor you speechless to meet any minority but especially a black or Hispanic who had an I.Q. higher than their white peers, scored higher on the ACT's/SAT's, had gone to "gifted and talented" elementary schools and a magnet college-prep high school, where they also outscored most of their white and Asian peers on a regular basis....and in Math and the sciences, no less.

People quoting statistics like this, and espousing the beliefs that follow, are the root of American prejudice and racism. The root reason for the surprise from most Americans that "not all Ivy League graduates are White or Asian."

Yes, the ROOT. The early years of life are where it all STARTS.

Statistics > Anecdotes. From the racist Journals of Blacks in Higher Education.
http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_coll...ions-test.html

Quote:
For admission to the very highest ranked, brand-name schools such as Princeton or MIT, applicants need scores of 750 to be considered for admission. Yet, as we shall see, only a minute percentage of black test takers score at these levels. Thus, if high-ranking colleges and universities were to abandon their policies of race-sensitive admissions, they will be choosing their first-year students from an applicant pool in which there will be practically no blacks.

Last edited by toobusytoday; 02-16-2015 at 06:24 PM.. Reason: When you quote - please link and three sentences only
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,798,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
Race is not an innate trait. You find the same pattern for groups that are placed at the bottom tier of society. In other countries the race at the bottom tier are the same people that are "doing well" in other places.

The black immigrant argument is bs on a lot of levels. Most are coming from well off and educated families. You also end up with extra motivated people choosing to come over. Unfortunately for "regular black folks" it is expected to have extraordinary luck, motivation and resilience just to have average success.

I lucked out and had educated parents and a middle class upbringing in a middle class neighborhood. I had a shortcut to the easier path. Still doesn't save me from getting stereotyped when I walk in the door.
False.
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,798,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
Some of what you say is true but not all of it. I have taught in low-income rural predominantly white schools, diverse schools with many lower income Hispanic students mixed with white students, and predominantly African-American schools. The behavior and disinterest in school is far more pervasive in the predominantly African-American schools. I agree that it's not a racial issue in the respect that there are plenty of African-American kids that have great parents that raise their kids to care about school. But the culture of inner-city black America tends to be one of disrespect towards authority and institutions. The parents have a victim complex. This is not their fault in my opinion but rather a side effect of white people disenfranchising them for years. Slavery was bad enough. Then when we finally rid ourselves of that horrible institution how do we welcome our African-American brothers and sisters into society? We flee to the suburbs to get away from them. This creates inner-city ghettos that are predominantly African-American, poor, and isolated to develop as a sub-culture in our country. We have no one to blame but ourselves (meaning white people).

I do agree that poor white students will generally do worse in school than middle-class and affluent black students. But that is because the middle-class and affluent black students don't live within this inner-city culture. This culture almost speaks a different language. When a student in my class starts talking to a friend in their street lingo I genuinely do not understand what they are saying. These kids learn to talk this way and then go to school and are taught to read a language that they don't speak. I used to think Ebonics was a racist myth. It is not.

I do agree that if low income blacks and Hispanics were more evenly spread it would be helpful. I think integration would have a very positive impact on education. I've seen first-hand in situations where black students were exposed to mainstream culture they flourished and adjusted very well. And the classrooms were much more manageable.
Excellent post. Although measured by SATs, reading scores etc. poor whites do about as well as middle class Black kids on average.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/education/09gap.html

Quote:
An achievement gap separating black from white students has long been documented — a social divide extremely vexing to policy makers and the target of one blast of school reform after another.

But a new report focusing on black males suggests that the picture is even bleaker than generally known.

Only 12 percent of black fourth-grade boys are proficient in reading, compared with 38 percent of white boys, and only 12 percent of black eighth-grade boys are proficient in math, compared with 44 percent of white boys.

Poverty alone does not seem to explain the differences: poor white boys do just as well as African-American boys who do not live in poverty, measured by whether they qualify for subsidized school lunches.
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:27 PM
eok
 
6,684 posts, read 2,958,195 times
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For tracking to be fair, all tracks have to be aimed towards success. Any de facto failure track is an indication of incompetence in the teachers and school system. That's a track whose students tend to fail to get a worthwhile education. Tracking is important, because it's not fair to hold anyone back to make them equal to anyone slower. But a de facto failure track is a failure of the whole tracking system. What we need are competent tracking systems. But this is America, and competence is hard to find.
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:44 PM
 
5,773 posts, read 3,061,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eok View Post
For tracking to be fair, all tracks have to be aimed towards success. Any de facto failure track is an indication of incompetence in the teachers and school system. That's a track whose students tend to fail to get a worthwhile education. Tracking is important, because it's not fair to hold anyone back to make them equal to anyone slower. But a de facto failure track is a failure of the whole tracking system. What we need are competent tracking systems. But this is America, and competence is hard to find.
Why would you assume there cannot be a "failure" track? In any random normal population, there will be some well above average, some well below. Some who just can't cut it. So why not build in a track that makes those folks productive and gives them the basic skills for life rather than trying to force them down a success path they can't travel?
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,996,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Why would you assume there cannot be a "failure" track? In any random normal population, there will be some well above average, some well below. Some who just can't cut it. So why not build in a track that makes those folks productive and gives them the basic skills for life rather than trying to force them down a success path they can't travel?
Because TPTB in Education in DC decided that every US student will be "college ready".
And Fed $$$ are dangled to the schools to follow that path.
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Old 02-16-2015, 07:27 PM
 
15,314 posts, read 16,891,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
Clevelander, you seem to assume a priori that integration is the most important function of the public schools, rather than education. If education is the most important function, schools will remain more or less segregated. Like it or not, there is just about a full standard deviation in IQ between Black kids and White kids, and a large component of intelligence is hereditary. I don't know why this is so (and I don't think that anybody reading this does either), but thems is the facts. The difference is accentuated by the kinds of values and virtues that the kids come from.

You can see the implications of this in my local school district. We attempted to integrate by offering magnet schools in dysfunctional neighborhoods to lure White children. These same schools also serve as the base school for the local constituents. Same school, same teachers, same level of funding. But in order to make the whole thing work, where "work" means educating rather than social engineering, students are grouped according to ability and accomplishment. This "re-segregates," within the magnet school. The White component does wonderfully well, and the Black component "graduates" barely literate.

It might be useful to remember that other races also have rights -- for example Whites and Asians -- and that their children are just as deserving of an optimal education as Blacks'. It is not in anyone's best interest to have the school systems dragged down in order to accommodate the least able students simply in the name of "integration."
But, differences in IQ are largely environmental, not genetic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/op...ted=print&_r=0

Quote:
For the poor, a group that includes a substantial proportion of minorities, heritability of I.Q. is very low, in the range of 10 percent to 20 percent, according to recent research by Eric Turkheimer at the University of Virginia. This means that for the poor, improvements in environment have great potential to bring about increases in I.Q.
Quote:
Important recent psychological research helps to pinpoint just what factors shape differences in I.Q. scores. Joseph Fagan of Case Western Reserve University and Cynthia Holland of Cuyahoga Community College tested blacks and whites on their knowledge of, and their ability to learn and reason with, words and concepts. The whites had substantially more knowledge of the various words and concepts, but when participants were tested on their ability to learn new words, either from dictionary definitions or by learning their meaning in context, the blacks did just as well as the whites.
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Old 02-16-2015, 08:09 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 3,407,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
But, differences in IQ are largely environmental, not genetic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/op...ted=print&_r=0
So you say. But it looks like we agree that there are differences in intelligence. As I mentioned before, the discussion inevitably turns in a single breath from "there is no difference" to "the difference arises because . . .."

I don't believe that you know the cause of the difference in IQ, or that I know, or that the writer of the op-ed in the NYT knows. The most likely explanation is part environmental and part genetic. The two are interdependent -- parents who are more intelligent are able to earn a better living and thereby provide a better environment for their kids. These same parents pass-on a propensity for elevated IQ to their offspring. To find the mean value of the distribution of kids that result from a pool of fathers with IQ=M and mothers with IQ=N, average M and N, and regress the result 40% toward the general population mean. This has been known for a long time. It is strongly suggestive of a genetic component.

Genetic transmission of IQ is an extremely uncomfortable subject for naive do-gooders, although people readily accept that differences in size, attractiveness, strength, skin color, and so forth are passed -- to a significant extent -- genetically. Here's the rub: If IQ is genetically determined, then 60 years of government policy and liberal classroom indoctrination has been wrong-headed. Evidence would suggest that this is indeed the case, as the "tangled web of pathology" described by Moynihan 50 years ago in his report "The Negro Family" is now worse than ever.
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Old 02-16-2015, 08:31 PM
 
8,158 posts, read 5,723,443 times
Reputation: 11585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
Let's try this again, since it's a very real EDUCATION issue worth discussing, as noted by the recent pieces below:

Modern-Day Segregation in Public Schools - The Atlantic

Segregation Now - ProPublica

A few questions:

1) Is segregation in public schools a problem today in the United States? Does segregation still exist?

2) What can be done to fix it, if anything?

3) Is it possible to have wide-scale integrated schools? Or will people, despite any policies put into place by the government, still find a way to separate from one another?

4) Do school choice programs make segregation better or worse?

Please keep this discussion on-topic!
1) Not a problem; insomuch as it exists it is largely voluntary.

2) Nothing aside from telling people where to live and who to associate with.

3) People generally prefer to live around people that are like themselves. "Diversity" is a recent phenomenon invented by Western civilization and is not natural in either the animal or human environments.

4) Irrelevant because people will find ways to segregate their kids.
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Old 02-16-2015, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Webster Groves, MO
1,104 posts, read 1,838,229 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
So you say. But it looks like we agree that there are differences in intelligence. As I mentioned before, the discussion inevitably turns in a single breath from "there is no difference" to "the difference arises because . . .."

I don't believe that you know the cause of the difference in IQ, or that I know, or that the writer of the op-ed in the NYT knows. The most likely explanation is part environmental and part genetic. The two are interdependent -- parents who are more intelligent are able to earn a better living and thereby provide a better environment for their kids. These same parents pass-on a propensity for elevated IQ to their offspring. To find the mean value of the distribution of kids that result from a pool of fathers with IQ=M and mothers with IQ=N, average M and N, and regress the result 40% toward the general population mean. This has been known for a long time. It is strongly suggestive of a genetic component.

Genetic transmission of IQ is an extremely uncomfortable subject for naive do-gooders, although people readily accept that differences in size, attractiveness, strength, skin color, and so forth are passed -- to a significant extent -- genetically. Here's the rub: If IQ is genetically determined, then 60 years of government policy and liberal classroom indoctrination has been wrong-headed. Evidence would suggest that this is indeed the case, as the "tangled web of pathology" described by Moynihan 50 years ago in his report "The Negro Family" is now worse than ever.
Unless the one standard deviation you speak about is mostly the part that is impacted by environment. I do believe that that IQ is impacted by genes. But I don't necessarily believe genes is the main reason for the difference in black versus white IQ. I think it is much more likely the aspect of environment. There are many different IQ tests. Most comprehensive ones I've seen and taken have an aspect of word comparison. If your vocabulary is low because your parents have not given you access to books to read then that could impact your IQ score.

The other thing to consider is which sub-groups of people immigrated here from other countries/areas. The Africans that came here as slaves were possibly the lower end of that gene pool. This may be a reason that Africans do not show the same "achievement gap" as African-Americans. I think it is safe to say that is definitely the case with the mass wave of Latinos into our country. It's not the highly educated Mexican doctors and lawyers that are sneaking across the border. So in many cases the gene pool of certain subgroups of immigrants may have an impact on that ethnic groups success academically.
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