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Old 05-17-2015, 07:20 AM
LLN
 
Location: Upstairs closet
4,914 posts, read 8,364,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post

I used to go to the computer lab to do educational applets but that ends up with my spending my time policing the web sites they are on so now I just show them to them in class. I used to go to the computer lab so they could research topics but "research" means cut, paste and edit so you can get past a plagiarism checker so I don't do that anymore.

"Computer lab" worst idea of all time. Computers are like pencils. They are simple tools. The means, not the end.

Take away the mystery, they become used like a pencil. Make the computer the event, then it becomes the event.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:31 AM
 
1,916 posts, read 1,088,842 times
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I would make logic a core subject, taught at a very young age and accentuated all throughout school. The subject of logic should be on par w social studies, English, math, etc....if not more important. The vast majority of adults on this very forum cannot process information logically.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LLN View Post
"Computer lab" worst idea of all time. Computers are like pencils. They are simple tools. The means, not the end.

Take away the mystery, they become used like a pencil. Make the computer the event, then it becomes the event.
I agree with this. My dd's attended a charter school that gave every elementary student a lap top and then simply expected them to use it. They never had computer classes. They learned by using them. Unfortunately they found they could not continue this at the high school level because of the things kids used them for and the kids trashed them. The elementary kids took care of them and were too scared to go to websites that were forbidden. High school kids know all the tricks to get around the blocking programs.

I'm not sure how to fix this. High school kids would rather surf the web, watch videos and post about themselves than use computers as a tool for learning.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-17-2015 at 07:45 AM..
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,014 posts, read 98,876,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LLN View Post
1. Go to cloud computing for the entire national school system
2. One or two techs at district level
3. Techs in school
4. Rotate administrators back to classroom every 5 years
5. Require every administrator to take a three year course in macro and micro economics
6. Require every administrator to spend a two year practicum in a successful for profit business
7. Rigid tracking by ability and conduct
8. Achievement "gates" every two years
9. Promotion based on achievement, and if a gate is not passed, then out of school system to varying levels of menial track
10. Zero tolerance for any disruption in the classroom
11. Make principal responsible for both ranking/grading teachers and paying teachers
12. Eliminate most district personal and dramatically reduce state dept of education
13. Provide each student a computer and if required internet access (money coming from huge savings in reduction of district and state personnel)
14. For problem children, before they are mustered out, a sixmonth "after hours course" with parent as final chance to remain in education system
15. One 100 question test, per grade, all subjects. One.
1. There is no national school system.
2. My district has techs, if by that you mean computer techs. More than two. Again, another case of find out what's going on before making recommedations http://bvsd.org/IT/Pages/default.aspx
3. Even small elementary schools that would maybe need their services a few hours a week?
4. It probably would be a good idea to rotate these folks back into the classroom.
5-6. Three years for every admin? Are you serious? For some reason, many people feel that schools should be "run like a business". There is a huge difference between a school system and a business, any business. There's no product being made/sold. They're not even really "selling" educational services, like a doctor's office or a hospital sells health care services. The point is to educate students. Some of these students require services that are not particularly "cost-effective". But, general humanity, and if you want a legal basis, the constitution of every state, require a free public education be offered to all students.
7,8,9, 10 Too legalistic. Remember that pesky constitutional issue.
11. Could get very subjective and nasty.
12. I don't think having fewer employees, that is, fewer teachers who are the bulk of the employees, is the answer.
13. You're putting way too much faith in computers as a learning tool.
14. Again, too legalistic and probably unconstitutional, not to mention, this special course will cost money. You want to slash teachers and replace them with prison masters.
15. Already discussed by Ivory as a bad idea.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:42 AM
 
5,770 posts, read 3,047,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notyme4soles View Post
One I feel strongly about is the way that the place you get educated can make a huge difference. I don't believe it should be such a dramatic difference; a person in NYC should be able to get the same standard of education as a person in Nashville, LA, Detroit, Tallahassee, N. Orleans, WideSpotInRoad, etc. But it doesn't happen. Why is that? is it because the people who make decisions about a school (the school board) aren't all using the same point of reference? I believe so.
Too many people today seem to see education as an opportunity to put their opinions into action and it should not be like that. Let school boards include people who have educational backgrounds and who understand that education isn't a way to indoctrinate or restrict students, but to open their minds and help them learn through the rest of their lives.
..
There are very good reasons why education needs to be different in different places -- the students themselves are different and have very different goals. Part of the current problem is we are trying to force all students into a one size fits all college bound curriculum. Most students are not going that way. Just an example: in an rural agricultural area, the majority of students will by heading toward similar occupations. While some will go to college, some even to science, engineering, medicine, a majority will go into mechanical trades or back into agriculture. In contrast, in a high tech area, a large number of students will be exposed to that and want to follow into that in college. Now don't put words into my mouth saying it's 100% one way or the other, but it is highly differentiated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notyme4soles View Post
At present, too many people see education as a necessary evil that they would prefer to have avoided, as something that has a definite ending at the age of 18 or 24, and college education turns people's minds weird,etc.
There's almost a sense of pride coming from some people who didn't get a college education.
Without a change in the minds of people, nothing much will happen. That itself is the most significant difference I have noticed between the way education is here and how it is in some other countries.
This is certainly agree with, and you see often on many discussion boards when education comes up. There is a very high level of anti intellectualism in the US that defies logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post

I agree 100% that without a change in thinking NOTHING changes. We can change everything. ...NOTHING will change because the true problem with education in this country is our attitude about education. They send teachers to seminars where they teach us how to engage Johnny (which is basically entertaining him and tricking him into learning something but it's not much) as if Johnny really wants to learn what we're teaching but he doesn't . He and his parents view school as a necessary evil. Something that is done to them that has penalties for not doing it. Until we change our attitude nothing is going to change. Which brings me to my suggestion. TEST what is intended to be taught and don't let kids pass if they can't pass the test.

.
I absolutely agree with this part. The problem with this line of thought is they will simply view that one big high stakes test as just another penalty that makes education terrible. It won't capture the ones who already view school as punishment rather than education and then turn off even more of the ones who do want to learn but find learning turned from a joy to a punishment. You cannot test in quality; it has to be built in from the beginning.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,014 posts, read 98,876,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
There are very good reasons why education needs to be different in different places -- the students themselves are different and have very different goals. Part of the current problem is we are trying to force all students into a one size fits all college bound curriculum. Most students are not going that way. Just an example: in an rural agricultural area, the majority of students will by heading toward similar occupations. While some will go to college, some even to science, engineering, medicine, a majority will go into mechanical trades or back into agriculture. In contrast, in a high tech area, a large number of students will be exposed to that and want to follow into that in college. Now don't put words into my mouth saying it's 100% one way or the other, but it is highly differentiated.



This is certainly agree with, and you see often on many discussion boards when education comes up. There is a very high level of anti intellectualism in the US that defies logic.



I absolutely agree with this part. The problem with this line of thought is they will simply view that one big high stakes test as just another penalty that makes education terrible. It won't capture the ones who already view school as punishment rather than education and then turn off even more of the ones who do want to learn but find learning turned from a joy to a punishment. You cannot test in quality; it has to be built in from the beginning.
I think there is way less of a push to prepare everyone for college than you think. And I disagree that kids in an ag area should be taught one way, another in a high-tech area. There's probably no need for agricultural ed in NYC, but all kids should get the same baseline.

There's a high level of anti-intellectualism on this very board! Every time, and I do mean every time college comes up, people jump in and talk about how college isn't for everyone (well, it isn't, agreed, can we talk about college now?), bring up anecdotal stuff about their uncle Joe Blow who never went to college and is now a mulit-millionaire, etc. Many posters actively discourage college, or further education in general. College students get mocked. Recent graduates get mocked.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
...


I absolutely agree with this part. The problem with this line of thought is they will simply view that one big high stakes test as just another penalty that makes education terrible. It won't capture the ones who already view school as punishment rather than education and then turn off even more of the ones who do want to learn but find learning turned from a joy to a punishment. You cannot test in quality; it has to be built in from the beginning.
I don't see another way. You are not going to change people's minds about education. The only alternative left is make the tests that are high stakes high stakes for EVERYONE including the student. While they won't like it, it will mean they take the test seriously and learning seriously. Teachers will have no choice but to take teaching seriously as their students won't pass the test if they don't teach the standards they are tasked with.

I don't know why we hate education in this country but we do. I don't know how to change that attitude but I do know how to get students to care about the test. Make them high stakes for them too. I can't make them like or want to be educated but I can make them care about learning what I teach. Yes, it's a test they'll hate but it's like medicine for their own good. I can't fix what's wrong but I can treat the symptom which is not taking learning seriously. Who knows this might even fix what's wrong. Nothing breeds success like success. If students do well on the tests it would be an ego boost. Countries that vertically align where students actually know what they need to know to move on have students who value education more than ours. Chicken and egg here but who knows. Students who don't do well on the test NEED to go back and learn what they didn't learn. One problem with our current system is we keep pushing kids though who don't have the foundation material to move on. We are setting them up for failure. They walk into the room on day one expecting to fail.

You'd have to phase this in with the first few years allowing students to pass in spite of the test to work the kinks out but I think this is really the only way to improve education here. It's impossible for us to just change the attitude about education across the nation but we can make them care about learning what we teach by making them show they know it to move up. While grades are supposed to do that all too often the class is just dummied down to make grades higher. I teach to high standards by today's standards but I do not teach to the standards I was taught to in high school. Several of the labs we did in general chemistry are now AP labs. I remember my mid term. I walked in on Monday, the teacher handed me two test tubes that contained up to 4 compounds and by Friday I had to tell him what was in those test tubes. I got a C but I was very happy with that. I think this is where I started to love chemistry. It was a big puzzle to solve. I would be fired on the spot if I asked my students to do this and I don't have a week to spare to do it as things are now.

As a teacher this would give me very valuable data about what I teach well and what I don't. I could then take an engineering approach and work on fixing the rough areas one at a time until I have a program that works (hence the phase in of about 3 years). Once I have my program down, it falls on the students to do the learning. One thing people forget is I cannot open their heads and learn it for them. I can teach all I want but if they refuse to learn nothing happens.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-17-2015 at 07:59 AM..
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Old 05-17-2015, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,014 posts, read 98,876,691 times
Reputation: 31456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Again, it would help if people would check and see what is being taught before making these suggestions. The school lunch program has strict guidelines they have to follow. Have you not heard all the furor over the newest guidelines for more veggies and whole grains. Virtually all health classes incorporate nutrition. I know of some schools with gardens, and I do think they're a neat idea, but save money? I seriously doubt it!
In my local paper this morning:
Sprouting healthy habits: Gardens proliferate at Boulder Valley, St. Vrain schools - Boulder Daily Camera
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Old 05-17-2015, 08:44 AM
 
1,916 posts, read 1,088,842 times
Reputation: 2064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I don't see another way. You are not going to change people's minds about education. The only alternative left is make the tests that are high stakes high stakes for EVERYONE including the student. While they won't like it, it will mean they take the test seriously and learning seriously. Teachers will have no choice but to take teaching seriously as their students won't pass the test if they don't teach the standards they are tasked with.

I don't know why we hate education in this country but we do. I don't know how to change that attitude but I do know how to get students to care about the test. Make them high stakes for them too. I can't make them like or want to be educated but I can make them care about learning what I teach. Yes, it's a test they'll hate but it's like medicine for their own good. I can't fix what's wrong but I can treat the symptom which is not taking learning seriously. Who knows this might even fix what's wrong. Nothing breeds success like success. If students do well on the tests it would be an ego boost. Countries that vertically align where students actually know what they need to know to move on have students who value education more than ours. Chicken and egg here but who knows. Students who don't do well on the test NEED to go back and learn what they didn't learn. One problem with our current system is we keep pushing kids though who don't have the foundation material to move on. We are setting them up for failure. They walk into the room on day one expecting to fail.

You'd have to phase this in with the first few years allowing students to pass in spite of the test to work the kinks out but I think this is really the only way to improve education here. It's impossible for us to just change the attitude about education across the nation but we can make them care about learning what we teach by making them show they know it to move up. While grades are supposed to do that all too often the class is just dummied down to make grades higher. I teach to high standards by today's standards but I do not teach to the standards I was taught to in high school. Several of the labs we did in general chemistry are now AP labs. I remember my mid term. I walked in on Monday, the teacher handed me two test tubes that contained up to 4 compounds and by Friday I had to tell him what was in those test tubes. I got a C but I was very happy with that. I think this is where I started to love chemistry. It was a big puzzle to solve. I would be fired on the spot if I asked my students to do this and I don't have a week to spare to do it as things are now.

As a teacher this would give me very valuable data about what I teach well and what I don't. I could then take an engineering approach and work on fixing the rough areas one at a time until I have a program that works (hence the phase in of about 3 years). Once I have my program down, it falls on the students to do the learning. One thing people forget is I cannot open their heads and learn it for them. I can teach all I want but if they refuse to learn nothing happens.
Personally, the thing I don't like about the education system in the US is that I don't believe that in a general sense, it teaches truth. I'm not in favor of communist policies such as state sponsored education, where the state controls 100% of the information. I learned 10x on my own than what I 'learned' in school (which in many cases was misinformation or outright lies).
Said in another way- I don't believe our current system is honest.
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Old 05-17-2015, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
Personally, the thing I don't like about the education system in the US is that I don't believe that in a general sense, it teaches truth. I'm not in favor of communist policies such as state sponsored education, where the state controls 100% of the information. I learned 10x on my own than what I 'learned' in school (which in many cases was misinformation or outright lies).
Said in another way- I don't believe our current system is honest.
What were you taught that turned out to be lies? I teach chemistry as I know it to be true. Could we find out tomorrow that what we thought we knew was wrong? Sure. We don't know it all. What we have now is our best guess. New information can change that guess tomorrow.

Someone must control the information or what is taught will be completely random. We NEED standards and we need to verify that they are taught and learned. Without them who knows what will be taught.

I can't say my education had lies in it. Misinformation yes but not out and out lies. I had a communist supporter for a government teacher in high school and she did teach pro communism but she taught about our government too. Just in a negative light. We knew the score though. I'm curious about what you were taught that turned out to be lies.
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