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Old 05-17-2015, 10:10 AM
 
1,921 posts, read 1,092,071 times
Reputation: 2093

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
What were you taught that turned out to be lies? I teach chemistry as I know it to be true. Could we find out tomorrow that what we thought we knew was wrong? Sure. We don't know it all. What we have now is our best guess. New information can change that guess tomorrow.

Someone must control the information or what is taught will be completely random. We NEED standards and we need to verify that they are taught and learned. Without them who knows what will be taught.

I can't say my education had lies in it. Misinformation yes but not out and out lies. I had a communist supporter for a government teacher in high school and she did teach pro communism but she taught about our government too. Just in a negative light. We knew the score though. I'm curious about what you were taught that turned out to be lies.
I don't doubt that the chemistry that you teach is valid- devoid of misinformation and lies. I also think some of the other stuff is on point- examples include most of the math, physical education, and grammar.

However, when you start getting into history, economics, current events, and social studies, I believe most of what is taught is misinformation and lies. The economic system in particular is based upon criminality and graft. There is plenty of history that teaches us thing, going all the way back to Plutarch, but it is never revealed to students. Logic is also either not taught, or in some cases, discouraged.

I don't believe in ANY public education system, because I don't believe those that set the standards have our best interests at heart.
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Old 05-17-2015, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ
7,416 posts, read 7,385,863 times
Reputation: 10623
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
Personally, the thing I don't like about the education system in the US is that I don't believe that in a general sense, it teaches truth. I'm not in favor of communist policies such as state sponsored education, where the state controls 100% of the information. I learned 10x on my own than what I 'learned' in school (which in many cases was misinformation or outright lies).
Said in another way- I don't believe our current system is honest.
I agree with most of this. The solution is:

1) Fully privatize the entire education system.
2) Tuition for the education of children should be a private expense.

This would bring a whole universe of accountability to the entire process, both on the part of the schools and the parents. Parents would be directly paying for a service, and would demand much more than they can now. Schools would be held to standards and subject to intense demands from highly involved parents. Failing to provide quality education to kids would put you out of business, which is correct.

The control of basic curriculum would move from institutions, who are really concerned with self-propagation and don't give a rat's ass about kids, to the local level and to parents who would choose schools based on their personal determination of what is best.

My kids would go to a school that emphasized reality, math, science, logic, reason, philosophy, hard core life planning, risk management, financial training, etc.

Another parent might choose more of a creativity-centered school that emphasizes art, music, performance, public speaking.

Another parent might choose a school that emphasizes vocational training, computers, auto repair, carpentry, mechanical repair, etc.

And if you have 3 kids, you might split the attendance based on the talents of the kids.

This would also force a more fundamentally sound decision on how many kids to have in the first place, if any at all. Because if you could not afford to educate them, you might decide not to have them at all, or you might need to be creative in figuring out how to finance their education.

I have a feeling creative and imaginative stuctures would evolve to handle the financing. Student loans, scholarships, foundations, religious organizations, etc, would move down the education food chain to primary education.

In fact, the whole idea of "secondary education" could quite possible become unnecessary, except for specific vocations where additional curriculum is necessary.

Why do we need a liberal arts degree? All citizens should receive a full education in one step. General purpose universities would not be necessary. That would save a boatload of money. Much of today's educational system is a racket and a con game. Not to mention the collectivist indoctrination implicit in a publicly funded milieu.

So I would like to remove government from the whole process. Completely. Parents can control this and pay for this. The quality of the American citizen would improve dramatically under a private education system.
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Old 05-17-2015, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,763,789 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
I don't doubt that the chemistry that you teach is valid- devoid of misinformation and lies. I also think some of the other stuff is on point- examples include most of the math, physical education, and grammar.

However, when you start getting into history, economics, current events, and social studies, I believe most of what is taught is misinformation and lies. The economic system in particular is based upon criminality and graft. There is plenty of history that teaches us thing, going all the way back to Plutarch, but it is never revealed to students. Logic is also either not taught, or in some cases, discouraged.

I don't believe in ANY public education system, because I don't believe those that set the standards have our best interests at heart.
So who do you think should be setting the standards?

FTR, I teach geometry and we do teach logic. What do you think proofs are? I tell my students and their parents that geometry is just the vehicle to teach logic and that what I really teach is how to think your way out of a paper bag. The best way to learn that skill is to be put in a paper bag and tasked with thinking your way out. You'll fail at first but with repeated attempts you actually start to get pretty good at it.

I couldn't tell you what I learned in history or economics. I didn't pay attention in those classes, lol. Not my cup of tea. I like math and science. Things I can reason through and see the results. Not surprisingly physics is my favorite subject to teach. It combines math logic and science. Chemistry's not bad but it's very abstract and difficult to teach to teenagers who tend to be non gestalt thinkers. I find they have trouble putting the pieces together to see the beauty of the whole. They just want to get past the next test. I think chemistry is beautiful in it's complexity but I have many years of studying it on them. Physics is math you can experience. Physics is cool.
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Old 05-17-2015, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
33,970 posts, read 32,443,924 times
Reputation: 49941
1. Any high school graduate who enters college as a freshman and needs remedial classes would be sent back to high school on his or her community's dime to get those remedial classes. That is, the money will come out of the high school's current year budget to pay for those returning students. Perhaps if the taxpayers get angry enough, every kid won't be automatically graduated. The colleges shouldn't be picking up the slack for lousy schools.

2. I understand it is already being done in some places but every kid needs to learn financial responsibility/personal finances starting in elementary school and continuing through high school.

3. Demote the Department of Education from a Department. It obviously has not improved education. It should revert back to the title it had before 1979 and be placed under another Department. Get it off the backs of school administrators and teachers who would not have to answer to it.

4. Consult college professors and instructors and business people for input on how to improve the high schools. They have to deal with what's coming out of them so they should know what's lacking/needs improvement.

5. Every kid would have to pass the same tests that immigrants trying to become citizens have to pass before they could graduate high school.

6. All classes would be taught in English except language classes. Students who don't speak it will be put in classes to learn it. I honestly don't know the current system for this.

7. Bring back tracking as well as "reform school" (school of last resort for behavior problem kids) with mentors from the prison system. Just get them out of the classrooms so the other kids can learn

8. Vouchers (from an old post of mine): I know someone whose kid was in Catholic school and didn't like the way something was being done. Her kid was a slacker who didn't do her homework, write reports, etc. The school listened and said the equivalent of, "Thank you. Have a nice day. We hope you find a school for XYZ." They had a waiting list to get in. That's what competition does. Your kid doesn't want to do the work or doesn't toe the line - Bye. The school doesn't need your money when another kid is willing to do the work and is coming with their voucher for your good teachers and programs. And that non-slacker kid deserves a good learning environment no matter where they live, who they are or how much money their parents make. And you know what? Good teachers deserve receptive students, too.

9. For new students only (not making adults already in the system meet this requirement): No welfare benefits of any kind unless you have a high school diploma or GED.
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Old 05-17-2015, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ
7,416 posts, read 7,385,863 times
Reputation: 10623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
So who do you think should be setting the standards?

FTR, I teach geometry and we do teach logic. What do you think proofs are? I tell my students and their parents that geometry is just the vehicle to teach logic and that what I really teach is how to think your way out of a paper bag. The best way to learn that skill is to be put in a paper bag and tasked with thinking your way out. You'll fail at first but with repeated attempts you actually start to get pretty good at it.

I couldn't tell you what I learned in history or economics. I didn't pay attention in those classes, lol. Not my cup of tea. I like math and science. Things I can reason through and see the results. Not surprisingly physics is my favorite subject to teach. It combines math logic and science. Chemistry's not bad but it's very abstract and difficult to teach to teenagers who tend to be non gestalt thinkers. I find they have trouble putting the pieces together to see the beauty of the whole. They just want to get past the next test. I think chemistry is beautiful in it's complexity but I have many years of studying it on them. Physics is math you can experience. Physics is cool.
This is all true. What most people don't realize is that there is great creativity and beauty in logic, math and science. As much as in painting or sculpture.

And music is a sublime combination of art, philosophy, and science. The structure and notation can be rigorous and mathematical, yet the creativity and innovation within the structure is unlimited and intoxicating.
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Old 05-17-2015, 11:07 AM
 
5,774 posts, read 3,064,391 times
Reputation: 15169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I think there is way less of a push to prepare everyone for college than you think. And I disagree that kids in an ag area should be taught one way, another in a high-tech area. There's probably no need for agricultural ed in NYC, but all kids should get the same baseline.

There's a high level of anti-intellectualism on this very board! Every time, and I do mean every time college comes up, people jump in and talk about how college isn't for everyone (well, it isn't, agreed, can we talk about college now?), bring up anecdotal stuff about their uncle Joe Blow who never went to college and is now a mulit-millionaire, etc. Many posters actively discourage college, or further education in general. College students get mocked. Recent graduates get mocked.
All kids pretty much do get the same baseline. And that's done by 6th grade or sooner. But yes, there is a very big difference in needs between different locations because of the strong cultural differences. Having lived in many very different areas from industrial Midwest to SF Bay Area, to C Springs, to rural south, I've seen and understand there really are differences in needs. Yes there are always kids who need strong college prep, but the number and diversity of other needs is different. For example, you have several times on this thread used your district as the standard, yet many, if not most districts around the country do not have the same course, opportunities, and support as yours. Even when I lived in Colorado Springs, D20 was very different from RE2 just down the road. And D49 was rapidly changing due to the growth of suburbia into it. D49s needs changed just during the time I lived there.

For your second paragraph, you are spot on.
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Old 05-17-2015, 12:32 PM
 
8,198 posts, read 4,487,639 times
Reputation: 8786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Then we'd have a HUGE uneducated population. That would not be good for society.

but then parents would be more involved with their children education instead of using it has a babysitting services
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Old 05-17-2015, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,044 posts, read 98,981,287 times
Reputation: 31537
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
1. Any high school graduate who enters college as a freshman and needs remedial classes would be sent back to high school on his or her community's dime to get those remedial classes. That is, the money will come out of the high school's current year budget to pay for those returning students. Perhaps if the taxpayers get angry enough, every kid won't be automatically graduated. The colleges shouldn't be picking up the slack for lousy schools.

2. I understand it is already being done in some places but every kid needs to learn financial responsibility/personal finances starting in elementary school and continuing through high school.

3. Demote the Department of Education from a Department. It obviously has not improved education. It should revert back to the title it had before 1979 and be placed under another Department. Get it off the backs of school administrators and teachers who would not have to answer to it.

4. Consult college professors and instructors and business people for input on how to improve the high schools. They have to deal with what's coming out of them so they should know what's lacking/needs improvement.

5. Every kid would have to pass the same tests that immigrants trying to become citizens have to pass before they could graduate high school.

6. All classes would be taught in English except language classes. Students who don't speak it will be put in classes to learn it. I honestly don't know the current system for this.

7. Bring back tracking as well as "reform school" (school of last resort for behavior problem kids) with mentors from the prison system. Just get them out of the classrooms so the other kids can learn

8. Vouchers (from an old post of mine): I know someone whose kid was in Catholic school and didn't like the way something was being done. Her kid was a slacker who didn't do her homework, write reports, etc. The school listened and said the equivalent of, "Thank you. Have a nice day. We hope you find a school for XYZ." They had a waiting list to get in. That's what competition does. Your kid doesn't want to do the work or doesn't toe the line - Bye. The school doesn't need your money when another kid is willing to do the work and is coming with their voucher for your good teachers and programs. And that non-slacker kid deserves a good learning environment no matter where they live, who they are or how much money their parents make. And you know what? Good teachers deserve receptive students, too.

9. For new students only (not making adults already in the system meet this requirement): No welfare benefits of any kind unless you have a high school diploma or GED.
1. A very punitive idea

2. I have discussed this many times on this forum, on P&OC, and on parenting. Kids will not learn something that is totally irrelevant to them, e.g. elementary kids learning about 401Ks, etc. Things change too. If we had had such a subject, no one would have taught 401Ks b/c they didn't exist! In fact, they didn't exist for the first 16 years of my career! They came into being in 1986. http://www.ebri.org/pdf/publications...0205fact.a.pdf And just whose values are you going to teach-the person who thinks "to have credit you have to use credit", and encourages the inappropriate use of credit just to build up a credit rating; the person who encourages you to put it all in a shoebox under the bed; something in-between? It may be appropriate to bring up some of these topics in late HS, especially as many colleges (e.g. CU) basically kick kids out of the dorms sophomore year and kids have to learn how to deal with landlords, the utility companies, etc. But elementary school or even middle school? Too early-will go right over their heads. Investing? Most 20somethings don't have money to invest, let alone middle school students. What little money they own can be better put to current needs.

3. I like the idea of the federal govt feeling education is important enough to be a cabinet level concern. I do not agree with everything the DOE does.

4. What would college profs know about teaching kindergarten, unless they were kindergarten ed profs? Or even middle school? Maybe by HS they might have some useful ideas. But teaching adults is way different than teaching kids. And yeah, to those who are probably not even waiting to finish reading this post before they hop on their keyboards to say "what's the difference between a 17 yo and an 18 yo?" I say, not much, but a little bit. The real issue is what is the difference between a 14 yo and a 22 yo. Lots.

5. Oh, for Pity's Sake!

6. Since you don't know the current system, maybe you should refrain from commenting on it.

7. Holy Cats! Crazier and crazier! Reform school?

8. Vouchers have not lived up to their promise, whatever that really was. The idea is not new. Private schools also put up with a lot of cr*p from kids to keep that tuition money flowing.

9. I would say have the diploma or be working on it, and successfully pass the GED to continue.
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Old 05-17-2015, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,044 posts, read 98,981,287 times
Reputation: 31537
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
All kids pretty much do get the same baseline. And that's done by 6th grade or sooner. But yes, there is a very big difference in needs between different locations because of the strong cultural differences. Having lived in many very different areas from industrial Midwest to SF Bay Area, to C Springs, to rural south, I've seen and understand there really are differences in needs. Yes there are always kids who need strong college prep, but the number and diversity of other needs is different. For example, you have several times on this thread used your district as the standard, yet many, if not most districts around the country do not have the same course, opportunities, and support as yours. Even when I lived in Colorado Springs, D20 was very different from RE2 just down the road. And D49 was rapidly changing due to the growth of suburbia into it. D49s needs changed just during the time I lived there.

For your second paragraph, you are spot on.
I do not think my district is any standard of any kind. I have used it in some posts (also my home district in PA) to tell people to see what their schools are already doing before saying "they should teach (insert pet subject here)". Everyone should get a basic education. I disagree that's over by 6th grade. Colleges don't have different admission requirements for students from different parts of the country. They do sometimes have different admission requirements for say, engineering school than for nursing than for teacher ed than for the standard arts and sciences majors. I've long been an advocate of getting kids a basic education, not funneling them off to vo-tech, etc early on. That can happen the last two years, if then. And I hate to bring up my district yet again, but even the Vo-Tech students have to meet the regular graduation requirements. Heck, the kid in auto mechanics may decide s/he really wants to be an automotive engineer after a time. Or the hairdresser may decide s/he wants to go to med school. It happens.
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Old 05-17-2015, 02:43 PM
 
1,921 posts, read 1,092,071 times
Reputation: 2093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
So who do you think should be setting the standards?

FTR, I teach geometry and we do teach logic. What do you think proofs are? I tell my students and their parents that geometry is just the vehicle to teach logic and that what I really teach is how to think your way out of a paper bag. The best way to learn that skill is to be put in a paper bag and tasked with thinking your way out. You'll fail at first but with repeated attempts you actually start to get pretty good at it.

I couldn't tell you what I learned in history or economics. I didn't pay attention in those classes, lol. Not my cup of tea. I like math and science. Things I can reason through and see the results. Not surprisingly physics is my favorite subject to teach. It combines math logic and science. Chemistry's not bad but it's very abstract and difficult to teach to teenagers who tend to be non gestalt thinkers. I find they have trouble putting the pieces together to see the beauty of the whole. They just want to get past the next test. I think chemistry is beautiful in it's complexity but I have many years of studying it on them. Physics is math you can experience. Physics is cool.
I LOVE physics, so I hear you there. However, I would say that proofs involve the application of logic, but they are not logic itself. That's not to say that I believe mathematical proofs are a bad thing- on the contrary, I believe what you teach is extremely valuable. But we need more of it.

As far as standards, I believe in the autonomy of parents. Again, I believe that state sponsored education is information control, and thus a bad thing.
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