U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-18-2015, 06:39 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,708,331 times
Reputation: 14495

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
The problem with tracking for students in the lower tracks is that their achievement becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The kids think they can't learn because they know they are being given lower work. The teachers and parents think the kids can't learn because after all, the kids are getting lower grades on lower material.

History of Education: Selected Moments



While the study focused on positive results, it stands to reason that negative results could also be biased by the way we place students into classrooms and tracks.

It is true that kids have different talents and different abilities, but the key is that often we have no basis on which to judge these and if we wall off kids who we *think* cannot learn, then they probably will not learn because that is what we expect.
True but look how well not tracking is doing. At least with tracking we give our top a chance. As things are now we pull them down to mediocre in the name of pulling up the bottom and no one gets a good education.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-18-2015, 07:28 AM
 
6,461 posts, read 6,099,147 times
Reputation: 9778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
What if there were a way for a student to go from one track to another based on performance and teacher recommendation? If a child is consistently out performing his peers he should be placed on the next track, IMO.
Just because there is tracking, doesn't mean the student has to stay on that track. There should be some flexibility.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2015, 07:34 AM
 
27,993 posts, read 19,652,644 times
Reputation: 16471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
THIS is the problem. Take chemistry for example. The state picks 6 of my 143 CCE's to put on the test and tests my students about 60% of the way through the year. They do not even restrict themselves to CCE's that would be taught in the first semester. Then they want to use the test scores to determine whether or not I deserve my job. Those 6 CCE's on the test represent 12% of the test with 48% being topics taught in physical science, biology, chemistry and earth science (12% from each). 52% is interpreting graphical information and scientific reasoning. I don't even have a CCE for interpreting graphical information and scientific reasoning.

So I can teach to the test which basically means ignoring my CCE's because they're just going to pick 6 anyway so I cannot use these results to determine the quality of my teaching or I can teach what they tell me I should teach and run the risk my students will do poorly on the test and I'll lose my job.

One of the BIGGEST problems with our education system is the tests do not test what we are tasked to teach. Start by determining what should be taught and writing a test that actually tests what should have been learned. You will, IMO, need to make this test high stakes for the student. As long as their scores mean nothing to them they have no incentive to try to learn what we teach or try to do well on the test. I have seen more than one students show up for the test, bubble one answer and take a nap.

I do not understand why there is a disconnect between what is supposed to be taught and what is tested. If the CCE's are what I should teach then shouldn't they be what is tested?
Quite a conundrum, isn't it? Its also incredibly frustrating for all parties involved. It honestly makes no sense and the only answer I can give is the people who decide what is on the test are not the same ones involved in deciding what the CCE's are thereby causing mass chaos and confusion. It seems like this should have been a top priority when introducing the idea of testing in the first place.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2015, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
4,683 posts, read 5,835,337 times
Reputation: 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
IME, as a parent only, I believe these tests do a poor job of measuring what teachers really do in the classroom. I know too many successful people who've graduated from our schools to believe what these tests purport to show. Living in Northeastern Pennsylvania, I know how much scrutiny teachers face. Our schools are among the lowest performing of the entire state. I think that is a reflection on families and students rather than the abilities of teachers here.
So what you are saying is the teachers are not teaching to the Common Core and state standards. It comes down to two possible scenarios. Either the teachers are teaching to the standards, covering all the required material and the majority of students are learning it; or the subject matter is just too difficult.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2015, 07:36 AM
 
27,993 posts, read 19,652,644 times
Reputation: 16471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
True but look how well not tracking is doing. At least with tracking we give our top a chance. As things are now we pull them down to mediocre in the name of pulling up the bottom and no one gets a good education.
Yes, I agree. I see the reasoning behind putting poor performing students with top performing students - bringing the bar up so to speak. But it doesn't seem to be working out that way. Instead the top performing students are being left behind in favor of helping the poor performing ones. Not that poor performing students shouldn't have assistance. They absolutely should. But why should top performers be held back??
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2015, 07:38 AM
 
27,993 posts, read 19,652,644 times
Reputation: 16471
Quote:
Originally Posted by meyerland View Post
just because there is tracking, doesn't mean the student has to stay on that track. There should be some flexibility.
ita
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2015, 07:39 AM
 
27,993 posts, read 19,652,644 times
Reputation: 16471
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
So what you are saying is the teachers are not teaching to the Common Core and state standards. It comes down to two possible scenarios. Either the teachers are teaching to the standards, covering all the required material and the majority of students are learning it; or the subject matter is just too difficult.
No, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying the CCE's are different than what is on the test. Teachers don't make their CCE's as far as I know. It seems like there are too many chefs in the kitchen and no one is communicating with each other. This lack of communication is hurting teachers and students alike.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2015, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Connecticut
1,144 posts, read 1,752,795 times
Reputation: 1337
I'm not sure if anyone knows what goes on in education or perhaps its different where you live but teachers in CT and NY all must have a BS and must have completed their Masters within 10 years of their employment.
As far as their payscale goes teachers only work 186 days out of 365. Therefore if you take their salary lets say 50,000. per year and divide that by the 186 days they work, they earn thats about 268.81 per day where as a person working in an office making the same salary is earning 191.57 per day. Not to mention that teachers usually have much better benefits than the average office worker.
Just saying .................
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2015, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,965 posts, read 98,814,535 times
Reputation: 31376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
If tracking were brought back, I believe we could reform the postsecondary education system as well. People shouldn't have to spend 10s of thousands of dollars on college to be a teacher, engineer, accountant, etc either. Bottom line, we should be implementing a system that fosters the continuing need for all workers - from HVAC techs to teachers to brain surgeons and everything in between. We need all types of workers to cultivate a productive and meaningful society.
If you are advocating for free college, I'd agree, though that would take a major tax hike. It's not possible to educate someone to be a teacher, engineer or accountant in high school.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2015, 09:17 AM
 
27,993 posts, read 19,652,644 times
Reputation: 16471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
If you are advocating for free college, I'd agree, though that would take a major tax hike. It's not possible to educate someone to be a teacher, engineer or accountant in high school.
Yes, I am a supporter of free postsecondary education.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top