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Old 08-22-2015, 12:54 PM
 
3,041 posts, read 1,697,227 times
Reputation: 3737

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Most of the problems with schools lies with the households that make up the schools. Fix the households.

Restoring neighborhood schools and eliminating busing (Boston) would also go a long way to eliminating middle class (largely white) families leaving the city.
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Old 08-23-2015, 05:53 AM
 
10,830 posts, read 3,804,539 times
Reputation: 4696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorhead1977 View Post
Spoken like someone who has no clue what it's like to work with children or teens. It doesn't work that way and every time anything slightly marketbased has been tried, it has failed. Look at the cheating scandals among districts with merit pay. Look at the current charter school scandals to see just how much cooking the books, employee abuse, nepotism and flat out lying administrators will do to maintain profit.
Sorry, I don't believe in being caught up in the controversies of public "education."

I believe in students actually learning something.
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Old 08-23-2015, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,870,497 times
Reputation: 27519
I would stop the carrot and stick approach the government uses on education with regards to funding.

Pass and you get your money. Too many fails and you get no money and enter the danger zone of getting taken over.

This only serves to teach to the test, play numbers games to "achieve" the goal and fixate on counting beans.
The kids and their skills, perceived, actual and remediated needs are left in the dust to achieve that holy grail of AYP and closing the gap.

I would say..you get your money. You do good then you get extra money. You do worse than last year and we send some consultants in to see where the problem areas are and we HELP you to close those gaps. A school with declining scores should be a red flag for HELP, not punishment.
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:30 PM
 
174 posts, read 88,493 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
I would stop the carrot and stick approach the government uses on education with regards to funding.

Pass and you get your money. Too many fails and you get no money and enter the danger zone of getting taken over.

This only serves to teach to the test, play numbers games to "achieve" the goal and fixate on counting beans.
The kids and their skills, perceived, actual and remediated needs are left in the dust to achieve that holy grail of AYP and closing the gap.

I would say..you get your money. You do good then you get extra money. You do worse than last year and we send some consultants in to see where the problem areas are and we HELP you to close those gaps. A school with declining scores should be a red flag for HELP, not punishment.
Exactly. Often that help is misguided though. The help is needed more in the student's home/community than having the teachers do one more unproven task.
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Nashville TN
4,925 posts, read 4,588,332 times
Reputation: 4778
Force the students to actual learn something. Lot of High schools care more about their football and basketball programs than education, it works for most of America but its actually kinda sad.
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Old 08-23-2015, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,697,018 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKWildcat1981 View Post
Force the students to actual learn something. Lot of High schools care more about their football and basketball programs than education, it works for most of America but its actually kinda sad.
The problem is they blame the teacher when students don't learn when often it is the student who is refusing to learn. Should I be held accountable for the student who never does his work? The student who simply copies his friend's work? The student who sleeps in my class? Texts in my class?

Unfortunately, reality is *I* will be held accountable for their failure when I have no control over the behaviors that are resulting in their not learning. I once had a girl in my class who had a major problem with me from day one. She would literally sit and stare into the corner as if she had laser visions and could set it on fire. One day I had enough of it so I walked over in front of her and waved my hand in her face and asked if everything was ok. *I* was reprimanded for this. Her parents were furious that I embarrassed her in front of the class.

I can't make students pay attention. I can't make students study. I can't make them think. I can ask them to do these things but the bottom line is it is they who decide whether or not to do them. I had a student last year who sad in my class like a bump on a log. The only time I Had any trouble with him is when I tried to get him to participate. The message was clear. As long as I left him alone he wouldn't cause problems but if I tried to make him do anything all hell would break loose. After checking his transcript and realizing this was a pattern I let him sit there.

The vast majority of students who fail my classes fail because they don't do the work, don't pay attention and/or cheat. I can honestly say that no student who has tried has failed my classes (seriously I give LOTS of second chances).

I would love to raise the bar and demand more of my students but I know that I would not be supported in that decision. Rather I would be blamed for increased student failures because they would rebel. This is really sad because the two years I taught in the charter school I did just that but I had the support of my admins. Do you want to know what happened? The kids ponied up and did the work. I still had my failures but I would have had them anyway however passing scores on the state tests increased 45%. Then they fired me and the scores went right back down where they were before I started teaching there. Unfortunately, the reward for actually teaching and holding kids accountable is to lose your job.

IMO there is only one way to hold students accountable in our society and that is to have exit exams for every subject and every grade and to fail the student if they do not pass the test. This will force all schools to teach the same standards and hold students accountable for learning them. As things are now it's up to individual schools whether to set the bar high or low or whether or not to hold students accountable for learning. Go ahead and judge me by these tests but make them matter to my students too. IMO it is wrong to judge me by tests that only as a hand full of questions from my content that my students have no vested interest in taking.

Decide what students should learn in each grade/class and then test that material to determine if they learned the material. If it was not learned determine whether or not it was taught. If it's worth writing a standard for it's worth putting on the test. I have no issue with teaching to the test if the test is well written and actually covers what is supposed to be taught. As an engineer I designed to the test because the test represented the functionality of the part I was working on. We need good exit tests.
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Old 08-24-2015, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
4,666 posts, read 5,829,758 times
Reputation: 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxtheRoadWarrior View Post
True, but I have to say I am tired of the mass of IEPs at the high school level. Not necessarily relevant to the post you are addressing, but it is something that is really starting to annoy me. I think most experienced Sp.Ed. teachers will tell you that by 12th grade your average student should be exited. Why some high schools have a quarter of their student population on IEPs is beyond me.
I sub for special ed. in several different school districts and I rarely run into a student who shouldn't have an IEP. What bothers me are situations like the 7th grade student who I had in class who was completely illiterate and did not have an IEP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
I would agree that tracking can be a good thing. As things are, we don't adequately educate either the kids who struggle and could benefit from smaller class size and more individualized attention or those who would benefit from a more challenging curriculum.

Problem is Europeans are, for the most part, accepting of the reality that not all students are equally capable, that differing outcomes are inevitable and that the goal of education ought to be educating every child to the best of their individual ability. We continue to cling to the notion that a miracle will occur and someone in some educational Ivory Tower will finally hit on the way to make all American kids equally successful in exactly the same way. Never gonna happen and we're continuing to sacrifice kids every day to the idea it can.
Yes, this would do more to improve the level of education in the U.S. than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpm1 View Post
Most of the problems with schools lies with the households that make up the schools. Fix the households.

Restoring neighborhood schools and eliminating busing (Boston) would also go a long way to eliminating middle class (largely white) families leaving the city.
It is easy to say, "Fix the households," but these changes are measured in generations not school years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
I would stop the carrot and stick approach the government uses on education with regards to funding.

Pass and you get your money. Too many fails and you get no money and enter the danger zone of getting taken over.

This only serves to teach to the test, play numbers games to "achieve" the goal and fixate on counting beans.
The kids and their skills, perceived, actual and remediated needs are left in the dust to achieve that holy grail of AYP and closing the gap.

I would say..you get your money. You do good then you get extra money. You do worse than last year and we send some consultants in to see where the problem areas are and we HELP you to close those gaps. A school with declining scores should be a red flag for HELP, not punishment.
The government looks to fund programs by looking for some measurement to manage. It doesn't matter if the measurement is relevant to the issue. You end up with results that are not what was intended. Healthcare, drugs and poverty are government programs with similar results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UKWildcat1981 View Post
Force the students to actual learn something. Lot of High schools care more about their football and basketball programs than education, it works for most of America but its actually kinda sad.
My experience is the opposite. Sports programs rarely interfere with education and are separate. Many teachers are unaware of who is involved with sports until they get an e-mail about eligibility. In many cases, the athletes are the some of the better students in the school. In some sports like swimming and cross country, the student's grades are considerably higher than average.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The problem is they blame the teacher when students don't learn when often it is the student who is refusing to learn. Should I be held accountable for the student who never does his work? The student who simply copies his friend's work? The student who sleeps in my class? Texts in my class?

Unfortunately, reality is *I* will be held accountable for their failure when I have no control over the behaviors that are resulting in their not learning. I once had a girl in my class who had a major problem with me from day one. She would literally sit and stare into the corner as if she had laser visions and could set it on fire. One day I had enough of it so I walked over in front of her and waved my hand in her face and asked if everything was ok. *I* was reprimanded for this. Her parents were furious that I embarrassed her in front of the class.

I can't make students pay attention. I can't make students study. I can't make them think. I can ask them to do these things but the bottom line is it is they who decide whether or not to do them. I had a student last year who sad in my class like a bump on a log. The only time I Had any trouble with him is when I tried to get him to participate. The message was clear. As long as I left him alone he wouldn't cause problems but if I tried to make him do anything all hell would break loose. After checking his transcript and realizing this was a pattern I let him sit there.

The vast majority of students who fail my classes fail because they don't do the work, don't pay attention and/or cheat. I can honestly say that no student who has tried has failed my classes (seriously I give LOTS of second chances).

I would love to raise the bar and demand more of my students but I know that I would not be supported in that decision. Rather I would be blamed for increased student failures because they would rebel. This is really sad because the two years I taught in the charter school I did just that but I had the support of my admins. Do you want to know what happened? The kids ponied up and did the work. I still had my failures but I would have had them anyway however passing scores on the state tests increased 45%. Then they fired me and the scores went right back down where they were before I started teaching there. Unfortunately, the reward for actually teaching and holding kids accountable is to lose your job.

IMO there is only one way to hold students accountable in our society and that is to have exit exams for every subject and every grade and to fail the student if they do not pass the test. This will force all schools to teach the same standards and hold students accountable for learning them. As things are now it's up to individual schools whether to set the bar high or low or whether or not to hold students accountable for learning. Go ahead and judge me by these tests but make them matter to my students too. IMO it is wrong to judge me by tests that only as a hand full of questions from my content that my students have no vested interest in taking.

Decide what students should learn in each grade/class and then test that material to determine if they learned the material. If it was not learned determine whether or not it was taught. If it's worth writing a standard for it's worth putting on the test. I have no issue with teaching to the test if the test is well written and actually covers what is supposed to be taught. As an engineer I designed to the test because the test represented the functionality of the part I was working on. We need good exit tests.
This makes too much sense! It would actually result in improving education in this country.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:33 AM
 
Location: midwest
1,349 posts, read 951,650 times
Reputation: 800
Burn all copies of Catcher in the Rye. LOL

psik
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:15 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,115,918 times
Reputation: 12774
Start the school day later. Studies show that children perform better when they wake up after the sun has risen and after they've had some time "jump starting" their motor skills by participating in a non-formal activity prior to school.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:28 PM
Status: "Bountiful pine needle harvest" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Near Manito
19,269 posts, read 20,147,764 times
Reputation: 13358
Mandate foreign language study. Four years. Include Latin as an option.
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