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Old 08-29-2015, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,697,018 times
Reputation: 14495

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
The high school my kids went to in the late 1980s had departmental finals. I think my granddaughter's jr. high has departmental finals as well. So all students in US History take the same final exam (although it is a different exam for preAP and regulars). However, I am not sure they have to pass the exam to pass the class - it is 60% of their grade, I think.
So does my school. The problem with this is the teachers write the tests to whatever they're teaching which may or may not align to the standards. For example, I teach about 70% of the standards (because that's all I can fit in a year) but when my dd took HONORS chemistry at her high school she didn't learn half of the standards. What is taught in chemistry varies widely between schools because all you need is agreement between the teachers as to what should be on the test.

I wrote the final exam at my school which forces the other chemistry teacher to teach what I teach. My students do well because I test what I teach but how well would they do on a test that covered all the standards compared to the next school over? Personally, I'd like to know the answer to that question as it could help me improve my teaching. Am I focusing on the right things? Should I teach more? Should I teach less and spend more time on the topics I do teach? I can't answer those questions using a test written at my school because that test is written with what is taught at my school driving what is on the test.
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Old 09-01-2015, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Fairfax, VA
3,829 posts, read 2,656,145 times
Reputation: 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie1215 View Post
What changes would you make if you could?

Most instruction should be computer based and online with teachers just relegated to being "monitors".
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:29 AM
 
174 posts, read 88,493 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsRock View Post
Most instruction should be computer based and online with teachers just relegated to being "monitors".
Huh?
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:32 AM
 
3,716 posts, read 1,666,317 times
Reputation: 5076
Every kid should be able to attend any school, taking into practical considerations of distance, etc. If he wants to go to a private school or parochial school, the school district in which he resides should pay the cost.

They did this in New Orleans after Katrina. It had been saddled with terrible schools, indifferent teachers and administrators. Since it has adopted school choice scholastic achievement has improved dramatically. Charter schools moved in to give kids an alternative to the public school monopoly and it's worked.

Charter schools are also doing a great job in New York. New York public schools ranks near the bottom on every measure despite spending more money per pupil than any other schools on Earth. Charter schools in the city not only outperform them, they outperform public schools in swanky schools districts like Scarsdale. And they don't pick and choose their students: they're chosen by lottery.

They had an interview with Eva Markowitz, the head of one of the charter networks. The system she described is the 180 degree opposite of conventional public schools. Teachers are as well paid but they're expected to perform. For English teachers they actually hire English majors, not flunkies from some education college.

Generations of black and Puerto Rican students have been consigned to failure by the public school system in NY. Charters are giving them a way out. The waiting list is 90,000 kids long.

Before, I never thought there was a panacea for failing school systems. Broken homes, poverty, the usual litany, had been drilled into me for so long I half believed it.

But there's no arguing with results.
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:51 AM
 
174 posts, read 88,493 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Every kid should be able to attend any school, taking into practical considerations of distance, etc. If he wants to go to a private school or parochial school, the school district in which he resides should pay the cost.

They did this in New Orleans after Katrina. It had been saddled with terrible schools, indifferent teachers and administrators. Since it has adopted school choice scholastic achievement has improved dramatically. Charter schools moved in to give kids an alternative to the public school monopoly and it's worked.

Charter schools are also doing a great job in New York. New York public schools ranks near the bottom on every measure despite spending more money per pupil than any other schools on Earth. Charter schools in the city not only outperform them, they outperform public schools in swanky schools districts like Scarsdale. And they don't pick and choose their students: they're chosen by lottery.

They had an interview with Eva Markowitz, the head of one of the charter networks. The system she described is the 180 degree opposite of conventional public schools. Teachers are as well paid but they're expected to perform. For English teachers they actually hire English majors, not flunkies from some education college.

Generations of black and Puerto Rican students have been consigned to failure by the public school system in NY. Charters are giving them a way out. The waiting list is 90,000 kids long.

Before, I never thought there was a panacea for failing school systems. Broken homes, poverty, the usual litany, had been drilled into me for so long I half believed it.

But there's no arguing with results.
Ok, this is either written by a PR guy for a charter school or someone extremely naive. Go do some further research on New Orleans and Eva Moskowitz. Both have ignored and turned away special needs students, tossed out discipline problem students and don't backfill spaces....things public schools are not legally allowed to do. The results you are likely using for New Orleans are from a faulty study funded by charter school advocacy groups. Charter schools merely avoid challenging students then say they are better than the public schools that do take challenging students.

Eva does nothing more than drill students with test prep and exploits poor kids to build her multi-million dollar empire with public tax dollars. Even with that, she's been questioned on reports of her having the state tests before they are given and refuses to answer. You'd also think someone whose students are the "highest scoring students in the state" would have a few of her students accepted into the specialty schools yet none have been. Interesting given that kids from "failing schools" got in. Also check out her attrition rate. Like KIPP, she is notorious for having a huge student turnover. Her first class of eighth graders had a 33% drop out rate from K-8. I wouldn't say she's doing a good job if 1 in 3 of her students get left behind (and sent back to the public schools likely).

Also...in the Northeast, teachers have to double major in education and the specific subject they will be teaching. Merely majoring in something does not mean that person has the skills to communicate with kids, break down concepts, or build a rapport.

Finally, if you live in a town/city you pay taxes toward - then that is school you go to because YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT AND OVERSEEING IT. I know charter fans don't get the "public" part of public school and don't think citizens have a right to see how their money is spent, but take a civics class and realize that please. My tax dollars should not go to any private or parochial school and no government will be able to cover the cost anyway. We are also seeing many private schools not wanting voucher money either since they will be held to public rules given they are taking public money.

Please don't spew charter advertisements here. Honestly, you sound like a recent TFAer who finished his two years and is now working in the media affairs office at Success.
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:58 AM
 
15,287 posts, read 16,828,849 times
Reputation: 15019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post

They did this in New Orleans after Katrina. It had been saddled with terrible schools, indifferent teachers and administrators. Since it has adopted school choice scholastic achievement has improved dramatically. Charter schools moved in to give kids an alternative to the public school monopoly and it's worked.
No, actually, it did not work in New Orleans

10 YEARS AFTER KATRINA, NEW ORLEANS’ ALL-CHARTER SCHOOL SYSTEM HAS PROVEN A FAILURE | VOICE OF DETROIT: The city's independent newspaper, unbossed and unbought

Quote:
The researchers found that the gap between charter and public school performance in Louisiana was the largest of any state in the country. And Louisiana’s overall scores were the fourth-lowest in the nation.
Quote:
Community members mourned the closures of public schools that had served as neighborhood hubs. Students at no-excuses charters described feeling like they were in prison, or bootcamp. Teachers felt demoralized, like they didn’t have a voice in the classroom. Parents complained about a lack of Black teachers. In interview after interview, people said the same thing: The system doesn’t put children’s needs first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Charter schools are also doing a great job in New York. New York public schools ranks near the bottom on every measure despite spending more money per pupil than any other schools on Earth. Charter schools in the city not only outperform them, they outperform public schools in swanky schools districts like Scarsdale. And they don't pick and choose their students: they're chosen by lottery.

They had an interview with Eva Markowitz, the head of one of the charter networks. The system she described is the 180 degree opposite of conventional public schools. Teachers are as well paid but they're expected to perform. For English teachers they actually hire English majors, not flunkies from some education college.

Generations of black and Puerto Rican students have been consigned to failure by the public school system in NY. Charters are giving them a way out. The waiting list is 90,000 kids long.

Before, I never thought there was a panacea for failing school systems. Broken homes, poverty, the usual litany, had been drilled into me for so long I half believed it.

But there's no arguing with results.
Except the results are NOT what you think they are. Eva Moskowitz is a fraud.

The Secret to Eva Moskowitz

Quote:
 Moskowitz often says that she enrolls exactly the same types of children as the public schools, but this is not true. Success Academy has very few of the students with the most severe disabilities (in some of its schools, the number is zero). In Harlem’s public elementary schools, by contrast, the average proportion of such children is 14.1 percent. Also, Success Academy has half as many English-language learners as the neighboring public schools. Whether this is the result of a screening process at the outset or because these children have been “counseled out” is unclear; what is undeniable is that Success Academy has significantly fewer of the children with the highest needs.
They don't keep students so there test scores are actually not as good as they claim. Kids leave before 8th grade frequently and are not replaced by new students.

Quote:
Of the thirty-two eighth graders to finish at Success Academy, twenty-seven took the competitive exam to enter one of New York City’s prestigious specialized high schools. Despite their excellent scores on the state test, not one of these students gained admission to a specialized school like Stuyvesant or Bronx Science.
Quote:
 Teacher attrition at the Success Academy charter schools has also been unusually high.
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:18 PM
 
3,716 posts, read 1,666,317 times
Reputation: 5076
Pre-Katrina only 35 percent of NO students were meeting basic standards. Only 54 percent graduated high school. 37 percent enrolled in college. Now, the percentage of students meeting basic standards has gone from less than half to almost two-thirds. High-school graduation rates have increased by nearly 20 points, to 73 percent. And college enrollment, which rose 22 percentage points, now exceeds the level in the rest of the state.

There's no picking and choosing here. That's for the entire NO school system.

As far as making teachers happy, that shouldn't be the goal of education. Turnover is healthy. It's how you get rid of the dead wood. Stress is good. It keeps you on your toes. This is know by all professionals outside of public school systems.

Slight discrepancies in enrollment of special needs kids in NY between charter and public schools comes nowhere close to being able to explain the dramatic outperformance of charter school students on virtually every measure.

The best HS's in NY are practically reserved for Asian and White kids. The reality is that Black and Latin kids rarely are admitted. And White and Asian kids overwhelming attend the best public grade schools. Public schools are not a problem for them. Blacks and Latins are relegated to the worst of the worst.

As far as taxes go: Students at colleges of all stripes, public, private, religious, military can receive tax-payer assistance. The list of grants and programs is endless. And students get to choose their college, given the bounds of selectivity and ability that exist. The result is the best, if most expensive, system of post-secondary education in the world.

Contrast with the our grade schools and high schools which are only average despite spending more money per pupil that any other country with the exception of a few notables like Liechtenstein.

These principles are no different if applied to primary and secondary education. Tax money should be spent where is can produce the best result for the student. No monopoly should have automatic or even preferential access to it. It not only wastes money. It wastes lives.
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:24 PM
 
174 posts, read 88,493 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Pre-Katrina only 35 percent of NO students were meeting basic standards. Only 54 percent graduated high school. 37 percent enrolled in college. Now, the percentage of students meeting basic standards has gone from less than half to almost two-thirds. High-school graduation rates have increased by nearly 20 points, to 73 percent. And college enrollment, which rose 22 percentage points, now exceeds the level in the rest of the state.

There's no picking and choosing here. That's for the entire NO school system.

As far as making teachers happy, that shouldn't be the goal of education. Turnover is healthy. It's how you get rid of the dead wood. Stress is good. It keeps you on your toes. This is know by all professionals outside of public school systems.

Slight discrepancies in enrollment of special needs kids in NY between charter and public schools comes nowhere close to being able to explain the dramatic outperformance of charter school students on virtually every measure.

The best HS's in NY are practically reserved for Asian and White kids. The reality is that Black and Latin kids rarely are admitted. And White and Asian kids overwhelming attend the best public grade schools. Public schools are not a problem for them. Blacks and Latins are relegated to the worst of the worst.

As far as taxes go: Students at colleges of all stripes, public, private, religious, military can receive tax-payer assistance. The list of grants and programs is endless. And students get to choose their college, given the bounds of selectivity and ability that exist. The result is the best, if most expensive, system of post-secondary education in the world.

Contrast with the our grade schools and high schools which are only average despite spending more money per pupil that any other country with the exception of a few notables like Liechtenstein.

These principles are no different if applied to primary and secondary education. Tax money should be spent where is can produce the best result for the student. No monopoly should have automatic or even preferential access to it. It not only wastes money. It wastes lives.
First bolded part is a complete lie. Second bolded part - the slight discrepancies between enrollment of special needs of charters and public school is another complete lie. The outperformance is due to students being drilled on nothing but test prep, elimination of underperformers before the tests are taken (but they keep the kids long enough to keep the money), and early access to tests which has been reported by many former Success teachers and current ones (obviously remaining anonymous).
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Old 09-01-2015, 02:09 PM
 
15,287 posts, read 16,828,849 times
Reputation: 15019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Pre-Katrina only 35 percent of NO students were meeting basic standards. Only 54 percent graduated high school. 37 percent enrolled in college. Now, the percentage of students meeting basic standards has gone from less than half to almost two-thirds. High-school graduation rates have increased by nearly 20 points, to 73 percent. And college enrollment, which rose 22 percentage points, now exceeds the level in the rest of the state.

There's no picking and choosing here. That's for the entire NO school system.
How do you explain the new study then? The graduation rate and test scores have risen because they expel or otherwise eliminate students who have problems. We could do that in the public schools, but we have to educate *all* the kids.

10 YEARS AFTER KATRINA, NEW ORLEANS’ ALL-CHARTER SCHOOL SYSTEM HAS PROVEN A FAILURE | VOICE OF DETROIT: The city's independent newspaper, unbossed and unbought

Quote:
The study compared charters in Louisiana, the majority of which are in New Orleans, to Louisiana public schools, controlling for factors like race, ethnicity, poverty and whether students qualified for special education. On eighth-grade reading and math tests, charter-school students performed worse than their public-school counterparts by enormous margins—2 to 3 standard deviations.
Quote:
In the 2012-13 school year, the three Collegiate Academies schools had the highest out-of-school suspension rates in New Orleans. Sci Academy suspended 58 percent of its students, and the two charters opened on the former Carver campus, Carver Prep and Carver Collegiate, suspended 61 and 69 percent of their students, respectively.
Quote:
The 2015 report, funded by the Education Research Alliance for New Orleans, found that about a third used means to screen out undesirable students (“creaming,” as the authors described it), even though this is technically not allowed under RSD’s open-admissions policy. One school stopped advertising open spots and enrolled 100 fewer kids, forgoing funding, rather than attract “less-capable students.”
Screening out kids means the test scores go up. It doesn't mean they are educating the actual population. Kids are expelled or drop out, but they are not listed as dropouts. Teacher attrition is not a good thing. It means teachers are younger and less experienced. Since many are TFA grads, they have no experience with the kids they are dealing with in real terms.
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:03 PM
 
5,751 posts, read 3,035,945 times
Reputation: 15087
Ok, I know this will ignite a firestorm, but why shouldn't kids who can't hack it be screened out of college track high schools and put on something more appropriate? How are you helping them by forcing them through a program they can't succeed in? Why shouldn't troublemakers be expelled?

And in both cases why should the top students be held back which is what happens when everyone is drug along?
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