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Old 09-01-2015, 06:41 PM
 
174 posts, read 88,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Ok, I know this will ignite a firestorm, but why shouldn't kids who can't hack it be screened out of college track high schools and put on something more appropriate? How are you helping them by forcing them through a program they can't succeed in? Why shouldn't troublemakers be expelled?

And in both cases why should the top students be held back which is what happens when everyone is drug along?
This was something forced on public schools. While you do need to be careful about writing kids off too early from the college track, putting everyone including special ed kids on it has been crazy. But all that came from the legislature. So basically, we've imposed the impossible on public schools while creating charters that can ignore all that. We'd be better off revisiting how to make public school work best rather than hinder them.
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Old 09-01-2015, 08:39 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,955,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katie1215 View Post
What changes would you make if you could?
Rigorous curriculum taught by subject specialists as opposed to Educationists.

Quality textbooks available beginning with the elementary school which children would bring with them at home so they can study and so parents can see exactly what is being studied at any point in time.

Elimination of gifted programs in favor of a rigorous curriculum for ALL, even though only some will end up performing well on the most difficult levels.

Elimination of assessments/grades that can be pumped up with parental participation (such as various take-home projects, etc).

Going beyond K-12, elimination of college admissions based on extra-curriculars and all sorts of other frills that push children into signing up for everything while never having the time to study anything well.
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:52 PM
 
5,772 posts, read 3,059,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorhead1977 View Post
This was something forced on public schools. While you do need to be careful about writing kids off too early from the college track, putting everyone including special ed kids on it has been crazy. But all that came from the legislature. So basically, we've imposed the impossible on public schools while creating charters that can ignore all that. We'd be better off revisiting how to make public school work best rather than hinder them.
Ok, so where did it come from in the legislature? They didn't just come up with this on their own. (yes this is a leading question)


Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post

Elimination of gifted programs in favor of a rigorous curriculum for ALL, even though only some will end up performing well on the most difficult levels.
This is the part I wouldn't eliminate. We need to challenge our top students. That's already part of the problem is the gifted are stuck in mainstream classes which means the whole class moves at the speed of the lowest common denominator. No matter what intent we start with, the better students will be held back.
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,977,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Ok, so where did it come from in the legislature? They didn't just come up with this on their own. (yes this is a leading question)




This is the part I wouldn't eliminate. We need to challenge our top students. That's already part of the problem is the gifted are stuck in mainstream classes which means the whole class moves at the speed of the lowest common denominator. No matter what intent we start with, the better students will be held back.
Very true. I have students that complete the work way ahead of the other students.
So I give them the homework early and they finish that before the other students are finished their classwork. And then these students take out their books and read until the end of class.

This is 6th grade Math. No AP classes, no gifted program either.
I really do feel sorry for them. We're spending in inordinate amount of money and time on the lowest performing students.
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Nashville TN
4,925 posts, read 4,603,580 times
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I wish I was home schooled, USA High Schools are a joke.
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:54 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,182,461 times
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Originally Posted by UKWildcat1981 View Post
I wish I was home schooled, USA High Schools are a joke.
You can't generalize this across all schools or all areas. Sure, in a state like TN, everyone wishes they were homeschooled and your assessment of education is a joke. In a state like MA or WY, it's the opposite.

Your generalizing about education in this post, along with your belief that anecdotal experience (yours) trumps 47 independent studies in a previous post in this thread suggests that you are in no position to qualify education. Perhaps if you were homeschooled things would be different. Who knows.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:09 AM
 
3,765 posts, read 1,682,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
How do you explain the new study then? The graduation rate and test scores have risen because they expel or otherwise eliminate students who have problems. We could do that in the public schools, but we have to educate *all* the kids.

10 YEARS AFTER KATRINA, NEW ORLEANS’ ALL-CHARTER SCHOOL SYSTEM HAS PROVEN A FAILURE | VOICE OF DETROIT: The city's independent newspaper, unbossed and unbought







Screening out kids means the test scores go up. It doesn't mean they are educating the actual population. Kids are expelled or drop out, but they are not listed as dropouts. Teacher attrition is not a good thing. It means teachers are younger and less experienced. Since many are TFA grads, they have no experience with the kids they are dealing with in real terms.
The new "study"? By the "Network for Public Education"? The group headed by Diane Ravitch? Diane Ravitch, the "NEA Friend of Education" Diane Ravitch? (NEA - NEA Friend of Education Diane Ravitch's Speech) What do you expect her group to find?

"Community members mourned the closures of public schools that had served as neighborhood hubs. Students at no-excuses charters described feeling like they were in prison, or bootcamp. Teachers felt demoralized, like they didn’t have a voice in the classroom."

In other words, the felt bad about everything that doesn't matter. If their other findings were impartial, as were the studies that found NO charters were performing well, the later mish-mash wouldn't have been necessary.

Every organization hires duds. Without exception. In private ones, most duds are weeded out. This is the role of attrition. That is why attrition is good. That's why sports teams cut players. It's the Law of Nature. It's not good for the attritted, but that's his own fault.

It is exceedingly odd that in every other facet of our daily lives, we have choice. We can pick our doctors (to an extent), what car we want, what we want to eat and drink, where we want to live, what clothes we wear.

But when it comes to education, it's NO! You will go to the school we tell you to. We will decide what you should learn. We will measure how well you learn it, or not, depending on what our needs are at the time. We will tell you how much to pay. If you succeed it is because of our efforts. If you fail it is because your parents sucked. We will decide how well we are doing.

This is car salesmen telling you what car to buy, how to drive it, how satisfied you are with it, if something is wrong it's because you're driving it wrong.

Over time, cars got better because of choice. Food got better. Shelter got better. Clothes are a matter of taste. Education? Not so much.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:01 AM
 
174 posts, read 88,750 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Ok, so where did it come from in the legislature? They didn't just come up with this on their own. (yes this is a leading question)




This is the part I wouldn't eliminate. We need to challenge our top students. That's already part of the problem is the gifted are stuck in mainstream classes which means the whole class moves at the speed of the lowest common denominator. No matter what intent we start with, the better students will be held back.
See the ADA and IDEA. See the elimination of out of school suspensions. See mandating EVERY child take standardized tests regardless of their IQ or language. See outlawing tracking until middle school.

Re the second paragraph: absolutely challenge top students. But there still needs to be education geared toward students who will not be entering college or white collar jobs. Our schools did very well when we had true college prep tracks, vocational/shop tracks, and business tracks.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:05 AM
 
174 posts, read 88,750 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
The new "study"? By the "Network for Public Education"? The group headed by Diane Ravitch? Diane Ravitch, the "NEA Friend of Education" Diane Ravitch? (NEA - NEA Friend of Education Diane Ravitch's Speech) What do you expect her group to find?

"Community members mourned the closures of public schools that had served as neighborhood hubs. Students at no-excuses charters described feeling like they were in prison, or bootcamp. Teachers felt demoralized, like they didn’t have a voice in the classroom."

In other words, the felt bad about everything that doesn't matter. If their other findings were impartial, as were the studies that found NO charters were performing well, the later mish-mash wouldn't have been necessary.

Every organization hires duds. Without exception. In private ones, most duds are weeded out. This is the role of attrition. That is why attrition is good. That's why sports teams cut players. It's the Law of Nature. It's not good for the attritted, but that's his own fault.

It is exceedingly odd that in every other facet of our daily lives, we have choice. We can pick our doctors (to an extent), what car we want, what we want to eat and drink, where we want to live, what clothes we wear.

But when it comes to education, it's NO! You will go to the school we tell you to. We will decide what you should learn. We will measure how well you learn it, or not, depending on what our needs are at the time. We will tell you how much to pay. If you succeed it is because of our efforts. If you fail it is because your parents sucked. We will decide how well we are doing.

This is car salesmen telling you what car to buy, how to drive it, how satisfied you are with it, if something is wrong it's because you're driving it wrong.

Over time, cars got better because of choice. Food got better. Shelter got better. Clothes are a matter of taste. Education? Not so much.
If you research New Haven, New Orleans and Newark - you will see that "choice" has been a fallacy. Parents and kids aren't making the choice of which school they are attending. Some bureaucrat or computer in the charter friendly district offices are making those calls. In New Orleans, some kids are being shuffled to a different school every year. In Newark, families have closely aged siblings spread across three different school in three different sectors in the city. In New Haven, kids can't even get into the school across the street from them and some can't even get into preschool or kindergarten.

BTW, you aren't forced into any school. If you don't like your local school then you can pay for private, home school, or move. If you stay put, then you get involved with your kid's school (remember it's called a "public" school because it's run by the public).

Finally, your "that's nature" line to leave kids behind is cold. Every kid should be educated to their full capacity. Your desire to screw the kids that don't reach a certain level of academics and let them rot is pathetic.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:39 AM
 
3,765 posts, read 1,682,046 times
Reputation: 5174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorhead1977 View Post
If you research New Haven, New Orleans and Newark - you will see that "choice" has been a fallacy. Parents and kids aren't making the choice of which school they are attending. Some bureaucrat or computer in the charter friendly district offices are making those calls. In New Orleans, some kids are being shuffled to a different school every year. In Newark, families have closely aged siblings spread across three different school in three different sectors in the city. In New Haven, kids can't even get into the school across the street from them and some can't even get into preschool or kindergarten.

BTW, you aren't forced into any school. If you don't like your local school then you can pay for private, home school, or move. If you stay put, then you get involved with your kid's school (remember it's called a "public" school because it's run by the public).

Finally, your "that's nature" line to leave kids behind is cold. Every kid should be educated to their full capacity. Your desire to screw the kids that don't reach a certain level of academics and let them rot is pathetic.
You misinterpreted my "that's nature" point. It referred to professional employees, not kids. Incompetent employees are weeded out. Not kids.

Sure. If I don't like my public school, I can pay to go to a private one. The problem is that I still have to pay for the public one. I, or the school district, should have to pay for one of the other. Not both.

Choice is not a fallacy. Parents sign up for charters or a charter. Or they don't and go with the public school. The problem is that there are not enough charter schools for all to have a choice.
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