U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 09-02-2015, 07:48 AM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,941,719 times
Reputation: 3819

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Teaching qualification: BA in liberal arts (grades K-8) or a specific subject (art, music, theater, film, dance, math, biology, chemistry, physics, history, English, French, German, Latin, Greek, Italian, Russian, PE) with a high grade point average from a reputable college/university, plus one year of courses in pedagogy (elementary, middle school, high school.)

For junior college, an MA/MS in the subject from a reputable university.

For college/university, a Ph.D or equivalent from a reputable university. Exceptions: distinction in the field can substitute for a degree if you are in the arts or in business. For professional school, the highest degree needed for your teaching level.

Curriculum: Grades 1 -4: reading (phonetic method), writing, beginning grammar, vocabulary, spelling, arithmetic, geography, art, music.

Grades 5 - 8: grammar, English literature, various kinds of writing, advanced arithmetic, history (world, Western, U.S.), science with lab, geography, civics, art, music, theater, foreign language.

Grades 9 - 12: apprenticeship OR academic track. The latter would include English literature, history (world history, Western history, American history and politics), philosophy (logic, epistemology, metaphysics, moral philosophy, social philosophy, political philosophy, philosophy of science, history of philosophy -- all at an introductory level), foreign language and literature, biology, chemistry, physics (all with lab), algebra, plane and solid geometry, advanced algebra, trigonometry, art studio, music studio, art history, music history, PE and sports.

College: Foreign language and literature (continuing from high school), English literature, history (survey of Western Civilization, American history and government), philosophy (informal logic, epistemology, metaphysics, ethics, history of philosophy), and electives of the student's choosing, which might or might not comprise a major.

Graduate school: Acceptance based on a detailed research or thesis proposal and professors who are willing to supervise.

Professional school: Schools determine the requirements.

Funding: No government funding of any kind, including grants and loans. Schools may award scholarships if they have the money. All scholarships based on merit.

College (and above) selection process: Based on anything OTHER than race, gender, etc.

All schools/colleges/universities are private, not public.

Apprenticeships: These are paid positions, by the employer.

Let the marketplace rule. That includes teachers, professors and administrators not having tenure.
Good ideas, but I would also minus the extra-curriculars as criterion for college acceptance.
Use higher level academics to make the selection.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-02-2015, 10:12 AM
 
174 posts, read 88,493 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
You misinterpreted my "that's nature" point. It referred to professional employees, not kids. Incompetent employees are weeded out. Not kids.

Sure. If I don't like my public school, I can pay to go to a private one. The problem is that I still have to pay for the public one. I, or the school district, should have to pay for one of the other. Not both.

Choice is not a fallacy. Parents sign up for charters or a charter. Or they don't and go with the public school. The problem is that there are not enough charter schools for all to have a choice.
It's a public institution. I don't use the senior center and about eight parks in town, I will no longer need the elementary school, I never use the town nurse, God willing I haven't needed the fire department or police either. But it enhances quality of life which is why I pay. You're theory is very selfish.

As for charters...you really need to do some research and see the growing amount of scandals among them. Charters are merely the next white flight for people and not a good one. Even Waiting For Superman admitted that only one in five charters do as well as the traditional public schools. Choice is a fallacy no matter how much you cover your ears, stamp your feet and proclaim it is not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-02-2015, 06:22 PM
 
5,751 posts, read 3,035,945 times
Reputation: 15092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorhead1977 View Post
See the ADA and IDEA. See the elimination of out of school suspensions. See mandating EVERY child take standardized tests regardless of their IQ or language. See outlawing tracking until middle school.
.
I know, that's why it was a leading question. But where did those come from (as well as other rules)? They all came from some special interest or another pushing a specific sub agenda. Everything from mainstreaming, to "not bruising their little psyche" all started with some special interest. And every time we cater to a special interest, the rest of the kids lose because everything has to be dumbed down or somehow modified so the special interests can feel good about themselves. Ultimately every special interest is selfish because the needs of the population of students as a whole was sacrificed to the needs of the special few.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorhead1977 View Post
Re the second paragraph: absolutely challenge top students. But there still needs to be education geared toward students who will not be entering college or white collar jobs. Our schools did very well when we had true college prep tracks, vocational/shop tracks, and business tracks.
I agree with you 100% on this. We need to bring back tracking, shop, etc so that every kid is given the opportunity that best suits that kid. But of course we can't do that because guiding a kid toward a trade that he or she is better suited for discriminates against them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-02-2015, 07:05 PM
 
2,797 posts, read 2,511,845 times
Reputation: 6165
A system of reform in public education should first
1) establish the environment for learning.
Analogous to securing a perimeter in the military. This would mean removing those who are not there to learn. Get the disruptive OUT of the public schools. The daycare function has to go. Establish a designated place for the disruptive willful slaves to be confined in a 'hang out' location- perhaps a vacated school or former post office property. The consequences of this action should be the individual signs away their voting privileges in society until they achieve a GED.

This would be a major corrective action toward poor government leadership, which caters to creating dependency voting blocs without demanding consequences for poor decisions and actions. This may also provide an incentive then for those who would like to participate in society by then reorienting themselves to the education process (at their own pace if desired).

2) Require a GED to be able to vote. Put the onus on participation in a civil society on the individual.
3) Let the Teachers in the classroom (those closest to the classroom dynamics) make decisions that enhance their ability to teach (See John Taylor Gatto's, Weapon's of Mass Instruction and Dumbing Us Down.

4) Emphasize tracks for those more vocationally inclined
5) Philosophically, reverse the trend of continuously lowering standards to enable the least capable of the student population feel good about themselves. This is recipe for devolving humankind. We should aspire upward in this aspect not downward to appease small minds.

Problem is Education has become an 'industry' itself and both major factions in education: politicians and teachers unions / educational administrators have interests in opposition to creating a better environment for the student.

Politicians are looking at (policy) capital budgets for schools and 'programs' they can claim for political capital and as avenues to enrich themselves and cronies via construction and services contracts etc... Many industry goals lead to teaching for the test metrics versus imbuing students with a desire to pursue a continuous learning mindset.

Education Union administrators are working to grow a bureaucracy to continue expanding teacher rolls and also programs to claim for political capital and add bureaucracy to validate 'administrators' and the non teaching staff.

6) Cut non teaching staff and add tools to teachers 'playbook' in providing flexible instructional means based on student interests / proclivities of learning style.

Technology will enable those with a learning spirit to do so on their own. Tools such as:
Khan Academy
MIT Online
Stanford Online
are there already for those with a healthy natural curiosity. I foresee a continuing bifurcation along these lines of educational mindset - those who want to, will find a way and the rest will condemn themselves to serfdom groveling to the nanny state for more when they contribute little to nothing.

Some Education related sayings worth pondering:
"Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis" which is scripted in Latin. The English translation means "Education is the most effective form of rebellion". The moral of Thorin's quote is that much more can be accomplished with a book rather than a bat.

Society loves stupid people because they are so easy to control. To truly make a difference organize with the tools that truly bring about change: Education and Unity. The sheep (people in general) are force fed crap everyday via the media. Unfortunately, they take it all in with their mouths open wide. The uneducated cannot tell the difference between truth and lie, instead they tend to believe everything that is broadcasted without even questioning it. Everyday the system is unjust and unfair. Without education, and unity, the massive corporate lobbied tax hijacked machine can never be re-tooled. Ignorance is the single greatest tool of oppression.

“Government in its very essence is opposed to all increase in knowledge. Its tendency is towards permanence and against change…the progress of humanity, far from being the result of government, has been made entirely without its aid and in the face of its constant and bitter opposition.”-H.L. Mencken

The Miseducation of the Negro – Dr. Carter G. Woodson
“If you can determine what a man shall think you’ll never have to concern yourself with what he’ll do; If you can make a man feel inferior you’ll never have to compel him to seek an inferior status for he will seek it himself; If you can make a man feel justly an outcast you’ll never have to order him to go to the back door, he’ll go with out being told, and if there is no door his very nature will demand one”
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-02-2015, 09:13 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,941,719 times
Reputation: 3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I know, that's why it was a leading question. But where did those come from (as well as other rules)? They all came from some special interest or another pushing a specific sub agenda. Everything from mainstreaming, to "not bruising their little psyche" all started with some special interest. And every time we cater to a special interest, the rest of the kids lose because everything has to be dumbed down or somehow modified so the special interests can feel good about themselves. Ultimately every special interest is selfish because the needs of the population of students as a whole was sacrificed to the needs of the special few.

I agree with you 100% on this. We need to bring back tracking, shop, etc so that every kid is given the opportunity that best suits that kid. But of course we can't do that because guiding a kid toward a trade that he or she is better suited for discriminates against them.

Beginning at what age do you suggest tracking should be implemented?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-02-2015, 10:19 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,941,719 times
Reputation: 3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciceropolo View Post
A system of reform in public education should first
1) establish the environment for learning.
Analogous to securing a perimeter in the military. This would mean removing those who are not there to learn. Get the disruptive OUT of the public schools. The daycare function has to go. Establish a designated place for the disruptive willful slaves to be confined in a 'hang out' location- perhaps a vacated school or former post office property. The consequences of this action should be the individual signs away their voting privileges in society until they achieve a GED.

This would be a major corrective action toward poor government leadership, which caters to creating dependency voting blocs without demanding consequences for poor decisions and actions. This may also provide an incentive then for those who would like to participate in society by then reorienting themselves to the education process (at their own pace if desired).

2) Require a GED to be able to vote. Put the onus on participation in a civil society on the individual.
3) Let the Teachers in the classroom (those closest to the classroom dynamics) make decisions that enhance their ability to teach (See John Taylor Gatto's, Weapon's of Mass Instruction and Dumbing Us Down.

4) Emphasize tracks for those more vocationally inclined
5) Philosophically, reverse the trend of continuously lowering standards to enable the least capable of the student population feel good about themselves. This is recipe for devolving humankind. We should aspire upward in this aspect not downward to appease small minds.

Problem is Education has become an 'industry' itself and both major factions in education: politicians and teachers unions / educational administrators have interests in opposition to creating a better environment for the student.

Politicians are looking at (policy) capital budgets for schools and 'programs' they can claim for political capital and as avenues to enrich themselves and cronies via construction and services contracts etc... Many industry goals lead to teaching for the test metrics versus imbuing students with a desire to pursue a continuous learning mindset.

Education Union administrators are working to grow a bureaucracy to continue expanding teacher rolls and also programs to claim for political capital and add bureaucracy to validate 'administrators' and the non teaching staff.

6) Cut non teaching staff and add tools to teachers 'playbook' in providing flexible instructional means based on student interests / proclivities of learning style.

Technology will enable those with a learning spirit to do so on their own. Tools such as:
Khan Academy
MIT Online
Stanford Online
are there already for those with a healthy natural curiosity. I foresee a continuing bifurcation along these lines of educational mindset - those who want to, will find a way and the rest will condemn themselves to serfdom groveling to the nanny state for more when they contribute little to nothing.

Some Education related sayings worth pondering:
"Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis" which is scripted in Latin. The English translation means "Education is the most effective form of rebellion". The moral of Thorin's quote is that much more can be accomplished with a book rather than a bat.

Society loves stupid people because they are so easy to control. To truly make a difference organize with the tools that truly bring about change: Education and Unity. The sheep (people in general) are force fed crap everyday via the media. Unfortunately, they take it all in with their mouths open wide. The uneducated cannot tell the difference between truth and lie, instead they tend to believe everything that is broadcasted without even questioning it. Everyday the system is unjust and unfair. Without education, and unity, the massive corporate lobbied tax hijacked machine can never be re-tooled. Ignorance is the single greatest tool of oppression.

“Government in its very essence is opposed to all increase in knowledge. Its tendency is towards permanence and against change…the progress of humanity, far from being the result of government, has been made entirely without its aid and in the face of its constant and bitter opposition.”-H.L. Mencken

The Miseducation of the Negro – Dr. Carter G. Woodson
“If you can determine what a man shall think you’ll never have to concern yourself with what he’ll do; If you can make a man feel inferior you’ll never have to compel him to seek an inferior status for he will seek it himself; If you can make a man feel justly an outcast you’ll never have to order him to go to the back door, he’ll go with out being told, and if there is no door his very nature will demand one”
Nice points interspersed with some very callous ones.

Resorting to Spencerian "natural selection" diatribes can make you appear like you really know what you are talking about but that doesn't make you right, and least of all decent.

1 - 4 - pure callousness and cynicism.

5 - on target - as long as you ensure that children from ALL backgrounds are given a chance to reach those high, NOT-dumbed-down standards. No mater what you do, not all will, but ALL should have a real shot at it. This would involve a lot of public funding, genuine societal efforts, a sense of "being in it together" as opposed to "against one another", and lots of good will.
Everything this society IS NOT willing to come up with.

Lip service where you move your lips and say "we have e-qua-li-ty-of-o-ppor-tu-ni-ty" all while schools implement practices that achieve the exact opposite - does not count.

6. The online tools you mention are severely overrated. Net browsing, no matter how "educational" the sites, will never replace direct interaction with a great, passionate teacher that cares about the subject.

You say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciceropolo View Post
X are there already for those with a healthy natural curiosity. I foresee a continuing bifurcation along these lines of educational mindset - those who want to, will find a way and the rest will condemn themselves to serfdom groveling to the nanny state for more when they contribute little to nothing.
So...natural curiosity and those who "want to"! How evolutionist of you.

FYI, those "who NATURALLY want to" that you seem to hold in such high regard are VERY few. So few that we should not even bother discussing them as a group.
Those will find their way to wherever they want to get, even out of a pig's pen.
But are you going to design an entire educational system based on what very few are naturally inclined to do?

Now let's see what the rest of society (aka the overwhelming majority) is made of.

1. Those who do not necessarily "want to" - clearly not "burn to" - but who end up WANTING, because they are reasonably docile and educated mama with some perspective and a rotund pocket sits on their a** and tigers them into being educated until they WANT TO.

2. Those who "didn't want to" for a long time; in 1st grade, in 5th grade, in 9th grade...until it brutally dawned on them that Santa Clause doesn't exist and that this world has become a place full of jackals against whom you must compete or else. So they reject the "else" and they redeem themselves at a later stage via maximum personal effort once they come to their senses. Tons of late academic bloomers out there due to delayed maturation.

3. Those who "would like to" but don't know what to want, where to start, who to model, what hand to take so they can get the guidance they need.

4. Those who DON'T WANT TO. As in "come H or High Water".

So you reduced way too many human beings to category no 4 when there are many shades of grey in between.

The trouble with your argument is that it is a "black and white" one ("those who want to" vs. "those who don't want to"). And you know how much this type of arguments are worth, right?

As to this:
Society loves stupid people because they are so easy to control
.

Almost nailed it but not quite.

"Society" doesn't love stupid people because "society" is not the one doing the controlling.

The controlling is always done from the top and by the hands of an elite - largely a cynical one (with the occasional charming exceptions).

So it's the elite that controls society, not society controlling stupid people.
The intention is indeed to maximize the number of controllable people by keeping them stupid or never allowing them to rise above mediocrity.

But relying strictly on the natural selection method to make a better, less controllable society is clearly not going to work.

Last edited by syracusa; 09-02-2015 at 10:28 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2015, 05:37 AM
 
1 posts, read 383 times
Reputation: 10
Wow! this is a tough one. But, I'll probably just go with the flow on this one. Meaning, diversifying educational system especially now that more and more opportunities to study in different countries are being laid down in front of us. Simply checking out sites like diversityabroad.com made me see such how easily we can get educated in different manners.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2015, 04:44 PM
 
5,751 posts, read 3,035,945 times
Reputation: 15092
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Beginning at what age do you suggest tracking should be implemented?
You can pretty much start seeing some separation by 3rd/4th grade. They should still be getting the same basic material, but you can already break out some classes with more gifted, vs average, vs below average. Then you can start focusing on what each group needs most to help that group get up to the needed standard. If you keep them together beyond this point, you're hurting the top and not helping the bottom, even though it may feel good.

My 7/8th grade, they should actually be getting into different classes in math and English. Up to about that point everyone should be getting the same thing since those are the fundamental skills needed for the future, whether it's filling out a job application, paying bills, or understanding the news. But by the end of 7th/8th, they should be getting prepared toward high school tracking.

High school should have significant tracks aimed toward college and vo-tech skills, with subsets within them (science or business tracks for example) with higher math and English/Lit/History included whereas vo-tech should include design, machinist, woodworking, mechanics, electrician, IT among them. They would still have math, English, and History, but more focused on job prep and skills rather than college prep.

The thing is, people keep talking about giving every kid the opportunity to succeed as if success is only defined by college prep. And that's the fallacy. Success for each kid is unique. Yes, some are college bound. But some are naturally gifted toward mechanics. I define helping a kid become the best dang mechanic, or electrician, or mason he or she can is also success.

We have let success become defined by education snobs who only equate success with education. Yes, I went to college and became a physicist. My dad however never finished high school. He painted houses, drove a garbage truck, and sold softballs. And he was pretty darn successful at it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2015, 06:44 AM
 
3,716 posts, read 1,666,317 times
Reputation: 5091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorhead1977 View Post
It's a public institution. I don't use the senior center and about eight parks in town, I will no longer need the elementary school, I never use the town nurse, God willing I haven't needed the fire department or police either. But it enhances quality of life which is why I pay. You're theory is very selfish.

As for charters...you really need to do some research and see the growing amount of scandals among them. Charters are merely the next white flight for people and not a good one. Even Waiting For Superman admitted that only one in five charters do as well as the traditional public schools. Choice is a fallacy no matter how much you cover your ears, stamp your feet and proclaim it is not.
Scandals are everywhere. Watervliet public schools: a "resource officer", i.e., cop padding the OT, was busted for sex with 16 year old girls. A teacher from the same resigned after they found out he sent pictures of himself in his Calvin Kleins to a HS girl.

It's not like public schools are full of saints. There're bad people everywhere.

It's true about senior centers and such to an extent. But the amount of money are piddling compared to education. And a lot of these services could be pared down without anyone but the providers missing them. Schools, though, are naturally oriented for competition: there's more than one around.

I don't mean just competition between publics vs. charters vs. privates. Although all of them should be part of it. I mostly mean publics vs public. Parents from Albany should be able to send their kids to Shaker. Troy kids should be able to go to Averill Park. Etc. The Troy or Albany school district would then reimburse Shaker or Tamarac for the kids they send there. Or reimburse LaSalle or Catholic High if they went there.

Parents from Troy can shop at the Brunswick Price-Chopper. They aren't told you have to shop at the corner convenience store with stale bread. Why can't their kids go to Tamarac instead of Doyle Middle School that doesn't teach?

Choice is mainly for failed school districts. Suburban ones are fine as far as we know. But city schools are a disaster.

Only 8% of Rochester school kids are performing at grade level. Syracuse, Buffalo, etc. are barely in double digits. Year after year it goes on. New plan after new plan. Threat after threat. It just goes on. Albany is the latest case. They're being given "one last chance" after they blew the last last chance they got 5 years ago. Schenectady just admitted they can't do it and will promote and graduate everyone regardless of what they learn. This is an institutional scandal. A whole system saying it's doing something but not doing it. But it doesn't matter. It goes on.

The kids who have been through these systems are living lives of crime. They have no prospects for a good life. They are unhirable, barely functioning at an intelligible level. But year after year it goes on. The public systems have proven for years that they can't teach these kids and the proof that they can't surrounds us. They have ruined thousands of the lives that were entrusted to them. How many more?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2015, 08:35 AM
 
174 posts, read 88,493 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Scandals are everywhere. Watervliet public schools: a "resource officer", i.e., cop padding the OT, was busted for sex with 16 year old girls. A teacher from the same resigned after they found out he sent pictures of himself in his Calvin Kleins to a HS girl.

It's not like public schools are full of saints. There're bad people everywhere.

It's true about senior centers and such to an extent. But the amount of money are piddling compared to education. And a lot of these services could be pared down without anyone but the providers missing them. Schools, though, are naturally oriented for competition: there's more than one around.

I don't mean just competition between publics vs. charters vs. privates. Although all of them should be part of it. I mostly mean publics vs public. Parents from Albany should be able to send their kids to Shaker. Troy kids should be able to go to Averill Park. Etc. The Troy or Albany school district would then reimburse Shaker or Tamarac for the kids they send there. Or reimburse LaSalle or Catholic High if they went there.

Parents from Troy can shop at the Brunswick Price-Chopper. They aren't told you have to shop at the corner convenience store with stale bread. Why can't their kids go to Tamarac instead of Doyle Middle School that doesn't teach?

Choice is mainly for failed school districts. Suburban ones are fine as far as we know. But city schools are a disaster.

Only 8% of Rochester school kids are performing at grade level. Syracuse, Buffalo, etc. are barely in double digits. Year after year it goes on. New plan after new plan. Threat after threat. It just goes on. Albany is the latest case. They're being given "one last chance" after they blew the last last chance they got 5 years ago. Schenectady just admitted they can't do it and will promote and graduate everyone regardless of what they learn. This is an institutional scandal. A whole system saying it's doing something but not doing it. But it doesn't matter. It goes on.

The kids who have been through these systems are living lives of crime. They have no prospects for a good life. They are unhirable, barely functioning at an intelligible level. But year after year it goes on. The public systems have proven for years that they can't teach these kids and the proof that they can't surrounds us. They have ruined thousands of the lives that were entrusted to them. How many more?

Again, you are missing the point. Price Chopper in Brunswick is being paid for with tax dollars. If someone isn't happy with the "stale bread" they're being offered, then it's their responsibility as tax paying citizens to improve their schools. You aren't just a consumer of your local public schools; you are consumer and custodian of them.

You also seem to think the only way these kids will get ahead is by getting bused to another community for a few hours a day then returning to the unsafe neighborhood. Wouldn't you rather address the problems of the community while improving the local neighborhood schools? Plus, if you look further into charters and "choice", you'll see a high amount of parents in poverty who can no longer be involved (or attempt to being involved) because travelling to a school on the other side of the city is not possible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top