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Old 09-04-2015, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Montreal
579 posts, read 434,516 times
Reputation: 255

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I agree with you 100% on this. We need to bring back tracking, shop, etc so that every kid is given the opportunity that best suits that kid. But of course we can't do that because guiding a kid toward a trade that he or she is better suited for discriminates against them.
At the condition of having mobility between tracks that is so that kids realizing that one track isn't for them can change tracks without drastic adjustments. Countries that track are usually quite rigid as far as mobility between tracks is concerned.
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:27 AM
 
3,814 posts, read 1,705,509 times
Reputation: 5219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorhead1977 View Post
Again, you are missing the point. Price Chopper in Brunswick is being paid for with tax dollars. If someone isn't happy with the "stale bread" they're being offered, then it's their responsibility as tax paying citizens to improve their schools. You aren't just a consumer of your local public schools; you are consumer and custodian of them.

You also seem to think the only way these kids will get ahead is by getting bused to another community for a few hours a day then returning to the unsafe neighborhood. Wouldn't you rather address the problems of the community while improving the local neighborhood schools? Plus, if you look further into charters and "choice", you'll see a high amount of parents in poverty who can no longer be involved (or attempt to being involved) because travelling to a school on the other side of the city is not possible.
Institutions exist to serve their clients. Not the other way around. It is not the duty of Troylets to minister to their public schools. It is the duty of the schools to teach their children. If they prove themselves incapable of the task they have been charged with it is the right of the parents to turn to others.

It is not customers' duty to help the convenience store owner find fresh bread to sell. It is the grocer's duty. If he fails he goes out of business. This is the surest goad to finding fresh bread. By exercising their choice, customers perform their custodial duty best.

As they do with doctors and dentists and landlords. They're not custodianed by people. People are their customers and if they aren't happy with them they go to others.

And lack of money should not bind people to their local school the way serfs were bound to their Lords.

It is not as if schools failure just happened or is due to inattentiveness or lack of support by others. It has been going on for years. For generations. It is not as if just a little more patience, maybe a new superintendent, a new pedagogy will right the ship. All of these have been offered and in abundance. None have helped.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a symptom of insanity, is it not?

It's not like going to the shoe store and trying them on till you find one that fits. That's harmless. Repeating and repeating all the old snake oil remedies, tricked out in new labels, wastes human lives. It already has. It has wasted thousands of them and the toll rises every year.

Solving the problems of the community begins with the solving the problem of education. Fix that and the rest will follow. If you can't read and write you can't find work. If you can't work you can't raise a family.

Teach kids how to read and write. Then watch the other problems go away.
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Old 09-04-2015, 12:38 PM
 
174 posts, read 89,135 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Institutions exist to serve their clients. Not the other way around. It is not the duty of Troylets to minister to their public schools. It is the duty of the schools to teach their children. If they prove themselves incapable of the task they have been charged with it is the right of the parents to turn to others.

It is not customers' duty to help the convenience store owner find fresh bread to sell. It is the grocer's duty. If he fails he goes out of business. This is the surest goad to finding fresh bread. By exercising their choice, customers perform their custodial duty best.

As they do with doctors and dentists and landlords. They're not custodianed by people. People are their customers and if they aren't happy with them they go to others.

And lack of money should not bind people to their local school the way serfs were bound to their Lords.

It is not as if schools failure just happened or is due to inattentiveness or lack of support by others. It has been going on for years. For generations. It is not as if just a little more patience, maybe a new superintendent, a new pedagogy will right the ship. All of these have been offered and in abundance. None have helped.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a symptom of insanity, is it not?

It's not like going to the shoe store and trying them on till you find one that fits. That's harmless. Repeating and repeating all the old snake oil remedies, tricked out in new labels, wastes human lives. It already has. It has wasted thousands of them and the toll rises every year.

Solving the problems of the community begins with the solving the problem of education. Fix that and the rest will follow. If you can't read and write you can't find work. If you can't work you can't raise a family.

Teach kids how to read and write. Then watch the other problems go away.
The bread, Price Choppers, doctors, landlords etc. are private! Public institutions are run by and for the public. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? If you want nothing to do with one particular public, move to another one.

As for school failures -- it's all about at risk kids and getting to them, but no one wants to fund them. So instead they exploit them and say all schools suck because of those unattended at risk kids. Rather than fund them, privateers open charters to work with the kids who weren't a problem to begin with and then complain superiority. It's a disgusting fraud.

Your last statement is indicative of not having experience working with kids. It's hard for a kid to learn in school when they basic survival and hunger are on their minds, much less focus on reading and writing. Your magical formula is so....naive.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:33 PM
 
5,803 posts, read 3,090,351 times
Reputation: 15254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvanung View Post
At the condition of having mobility between tracks that is so that kids realizing that one track isn't for them can change tracks without drastic adjustments. Countries that track are usually quite rigid as far as mobility between tracks is concerned.
I'd agree there may be some limited mobility between tracks, but the cold reality is that most simply are not suited to switching between tracks. We seem to know and understand this intuitively when it comes to sports -- some people are naturally talented at soccer/football/baseball/basketball and some aren't. No matter how hard I might try, I will never be Frank Lampard or John Elway or take your pick. Why can't we simply accept the same about academics?

The sooner we accept the fact that "every kid can and should go to college" is a lie, the better off everyone, especially the kids, will be.
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Old 09-04-2015, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 70,230,224 times
Reputation: 27525
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I'd agree there may be some limited mobility between tracks, but the cold reality is that most simply are not suited to switching between tracks. We seem to know and understand this intuitively when it comes to sports -- some people are naturally talented at soccer/football/baseball/basketball and some aren't. No matter how hard I might try, I will never be Frank Lampard or John Elway or take your pick. Why can't we simply accept the same about academics?

The sooner we accept the fact that "every kid can and should go to college" is a lie, the better off everyone, especially the kids, will be.
Too much money is invested.
And if we did start to separate again the demographics of the the 2 groups would scream discrimination.
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Old 09-04-2015, 08:50 PM
 
5,803 posts, read 3,090,351 times
Reputation: 15254
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
And if we did start to separate again the demographics of the the 2 groups would scream discrimination.
But why is that? Why would it be discrimination? I know discrimination gets thrown around a lot lately as the all purpose excuse for everything. Why can't we focus on making each kid successful in the best education for that individual kid without concern of whether they are male or female, or black, or white, or rich, or poor? Discrimination is what our current system gives us. All in the name of a false equality. I'm talking about a system that is more equal because it's focused on the individual.
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Old 09-04-2015, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 70,230,224 times
Reputation: 27525
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
But why is that? Why would it be discrimination? I know discrimination gets thrown around a lot lately as the all purpose excuse for everything. Why can't we focus on making each kid successful in the best education for that individual kid without concern of whether they are male or female, or black, or white, or rich, or poor? Discrimination is what our current system gives us. All in the name of a false equality. I'm talking about a system that is more equal because it's focused on the individual.
You're preaching to the choir. I think we could best serve the kids if they were separated by skill and ability.

But that is not the way the US operates anymore. Those days are long gone.
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:51 AM
 
174 posts, read 89,135 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
But why is that? Why would it be discrimination? I know discrimination gets thrown around a lot lately as the all purpose excuse for everything. Why can't we focus on making each kid successful in the best education for that individual kid without concern of whether they are male or female, or black, or white, or rich, or poor? Discrimination is what our current system gives us. All in the name of a false equality. I'm talking about a system that is more equal because it's focused on the individual.
Because it's going to take time, money and acceptance. Many parents - even in academically charged elite schools - simply can't tolerate their kids not being qualified for a certain advanced class. Special ed accommodations that local school budgets cover can't eat up that budget and laws limiting what's necessary and realistic are not on the side of public schools. Of course those kids need what they need, but again - who will fund what's best?

We still need to be careful about how and when we separate the kids also. How many kids were placed in shop classes that were capable of doing college prep work? One is too many.

There's also the reluctance for a kid to be separated from his community school where their friends are.

I never thought my own high school was the way to go. But given that kids had the chance to follow one of the three tracks (tech, college prep, business) and intermingle between them was apparently successful.
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Volunteer State
1,243 posts, read 896,438 times
Reputation: 2159
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
But why is that? Why would it be discrimination? I know discrimination gets thrown around a lot lately as the all purpose excuse for everything. Why can't we focus on making each kid successful in the best education for that individual kid without concern of whether they are male or female, or black, or white, or rich, or poor? Discrimination is what our current system gives us. All in the name of a false equality. I'm talking about a system that is more equal because it's focused on the individual.
Why? Because this is America. And we don't let good logic, sound reasoning, common sense, and rational thought interfere with our educational system.

What were you thinking?!?
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,817,769 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
But why is that? Why would it be discrimination? I know discrimination gets thrown around a lot lately as the all purpose excuse for everything. Why can't we focus on making each kid successful in the best education for that individual kid without concern of whether they are male or female, or black, or white, or rich, or poor? Discrimination is what our current system gives us. All in the name of a false equality. I'm talking about a system that is more equal because it's focused on the individual.
How do you guarantee its' focused on each individual? Any attempt to do this will result in lawsuits because any time a child doesn't do as well as the parents think they should the system will be blamed for NOT giving that child what they need.

I agree that our current system is bad for all. The top kids get cheated out of an education. The bottom kids think they're more capable than they are and then are set loose to live a life that WILL discriminate against them because of their lack of ability/effort.

The only way I see of improving this is to institute exit exams for every year/class and simply not allow kids to move up if they can't pass the exit exam. Supports would have to be in place to remediate any student who doesn't pass. As things are now it's up to the individual teacher/school to determine what passing means and teachers are forced to pass kids who shouldn't be passed. We have to stop passing kids who shouldn't pass and then deal with the issue of why they didn't pass. Until there is some kind of common exit exam every school/class will be different.

We need to track but we need an unbiased way to determine who is on which track. The only way I see of doing that is exit exams. We need to determine if the student learned enough to move on before moving them on. You need to remove the decision from the school/class/teacher in question. Hold everyone to the same standard. Track based on results of exit exams.
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