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Old 09-06-2015, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,747,102 times
Reputation: 14499

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Ivory, that is how schools used to work.
But that is now history.
And with the system the way it is today we will never go back.
There is just too much money involved.

The carrot/stick approach invites corruption, cheating and bean counting over actual education.

Educating the children has taken a back seat.
That doesn't change what I think would fix the system. I agree that it's corrupt. When you attach money to kids passing that will tend to happen but it's not good for the kids.
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Old 09-06-2015, 09:27 AM
 
5,784 posts, read 3,056,197 times
Reputation: 15155
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Ivory, that is how schools used to work.
But that is now history.
And with the system the way it is today we will never go back.
There is just too much money involved.

The carrot/stick approach invites corruption, cheating and bean counting over actual education.

Educating the children has taken a back seat.

I understand the sentiment, but the problem has roots that go much further back than the "carrot/stick" everyone points today. In reality that "carrot/stick" or NCLB or common core or the next big thing are all in reaction to the more fundamental issues from almost 50 years ago when schools began worrying more about feelings, and tinder young psyches', and everyone's a winner than about educating students.

Unfortunately everything has degraded to a liberal vs conservative fight over money -- the "We don't spend enough" vs the "schools are full of waste and we spend too much." Frankly if schools were turning out the quality of education everyone expects, there wouldn't be this argument over money because everyone would be seeing value. The real question that will drive change is how many teachers will be willing to admit that only 40% of students are college material; that for half of students, most education -- as provided by current schools -- is pretty much pointless beyond 10th grade since it's not focused on work skills; and for 10-20% of students, "Do you want to upsize that?" is a stretch goal? Because as long as we molly coddle to the bottom 20%, we're helping no one.
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Old 09-06-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,963,954 times
Reputation: 27520
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I understand the sentiment, but the problem has roots that go much further back than the "carrot/stick" everyone points today. In reality that "carrot/stick" or NCLB or common core or the next big thing are all in reaction to the more fundamental issues from almost 50 years ago when schools began worrying more about feelings, and tinder young psyches', and everyone's a winner than about educating students.

Unfortunately everything has degraded to a liberal vs conservative fight over money -- the "We don't spend enough" vs the "schools are full of waste and we spend too much." Frankly if schools were turning out the quality of education everyone expects, there wouldn't be this argument over money because everyone would be seeing value. The real question that will drive change is how many teachers will be willing to admit that only 40% of students are college material; that for half of students, most education -- as provided by current schools -- is pretty much pointless beyond 10th grade since it's not focused on work skills; and for 10-20% of students, "Do you want to upsize that?" is a stretch goal? Because as long as we molly coddle to the bottom 20%, we're helping no one.
The smart ones send their kids to private school so they don't care what happens to public education.
Others that can't afford private school base their home within "good" school boundaries and don't hesitate to move if the school or neighborhood starts to decline.

Public schools are overloaded with employees that aren't even in the classroom.
There's nothing left for the classroom by the time everyone above gets their paycheck.

Layers of Instructional coaches, Curriculum directors, Master teachers, Intervention specialists, etc.
supposedly provide classroom teachers the necessary tools by which to teach and all because our scores are declining so the call is always for "more specialists". The problem is NOT the teachers; they don't need layers above them telling them how to teach.

IMHO it's a huge waste of money.
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:09 AM
 
3,764 posts, read 1,680,314 times
Reputation: 5151
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
The smart ones send their kids to private school so they don't care what happens to public education.
Others that can't afford private school base their home within "good" school boundaries and don't hesitate to move if the school or neighborhood starts to decline.

Public schools are overloaded with employees that aren't even in the classroom.
There's nothing left for the classroom by the time everyone above gets their paycheck.

Layers of Instructional coaches, Curriculum directors, Master teachers, Intervention specialists, etc.
supposedly provide classroom teachers the necessary tools by which to teach and all because our scores are declining so the call is always for "more specialists". The problem is NOT the teachers; they don't need layers above them telling them how to teach.

IMHO it's a huge waste of money.
That's true. There are more school administrators in NY than there are in all of Western Europe. And colleges and universities have more administrators than faculty.
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Old 09-07-2015, 07:57 AM
 
5,784 posts, read 3,056,197 times
Reputation: 15155
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Public schools are overloaded with employees that aren't even in the classroom.
There's nothing left for the classroom by the time everyone above gets their paycheck.

Layers of Instructional coaches, Curriculum directors, Master teachers, Intervention specialists, etc.
supposedly provide classroom teachers the necessary tools by which to teach and all because our scores are declining so the call is always for "more specialists". The problem is NOT the teachers; they don't need layers above them telling them how to teach.

IMHO it's a huge waste of money.
No argument from me about that. Just for comparison the school I went to in the 60s and the school my kids went to just 10 years had roughly the same number of students, and the same number of teachers. The difference was in the support staff. My school had a principal, two janitors, four cafeteria, and a secretary. That's it, just 8. My kids school on the other hand has that many in the principal's office alone, not counting cafeteria and janitorial. Plus they have almost 2:1 ratio of aides, assistants, and whatever's for every actual teacher.

What does that mean? Well not only are we paying for a whole lot more people, it also means the district has to have a larger more complex organization and staff to manager the larger workforce. Which means more directors and what ever. And all of them, including the superintendent, get paid a whole lot more because of the bigger organization.

Get ride of half the overhead and you could double teacher's salaries.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Texas
42,284 posts, read 49,863,906 times
Reputation: 67158
How would I change school?

Make it harder and fail the kids who don't pass on their own.
Make them do it over and over till they get it.

Not as punishment. But because you owe them that education. They deserve to stay till they get it.

Opt out at 18 only.


Then I would also make sure that people were grouped by knowledge and learning rates, not age. Age is whatever.

Any consistent disruptive influences can be given the boot.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:27 AM
 
12,404 posts, read 9,225,523 times
Reputation: 8868
Stop teaching to the test!!!
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
4,702 posts, read 5,853,248 times
Reputation: 5385
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
No argument from me about that. Just for comparison the school I went to in the 60s and the school my kids went to just 10 years had roughly the same number of students, and the same number of teachers. The difference was in the support staff. My school had a principal, two janitors, four cafeteria, and a secretary. That's it, just 8. My kids school on the other hand has that many in the principal's office alone, not counting cafeteria and janitorial. Plus they have almost 2:1 ratio of aides, assistants, and whatever's for every actual teacher.

What does that mean? Well not only are we paying for a whole lot more people, it also means the district has to have a larger more complex organization and staff to manager the larger workforce. Which means more directors and what ever. And all of them, including the superintendent, get paid a whole lot more because of the bigger organization.

Get ride of half the overhead and you could double teacher's salaries.
My elementary school in the 1960s shared a principal and nurse with two other elementary schools. There was no secretary. There were no aides. There was no librarian, art teacher or music teacher. We shared a speech teacher with several other elementary schools. There was a band teacher for students who were learning to play an instrument. He probably covered 3-4 elementary schools. We had one janitor and cleaning people who came in after students left. We did not have a cafeteria; we walked home for lunch.

My daughter is an elementary teacher in Florida and says there are numerous people from the district office who come through the school and observe her almost on a daily basis. Sometimes they don't even say why they are there.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,747,102 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
Stop teaching to the test!!!
I disagree. The problem isn't teaching to the test. It's that the test doesn't test what should be taught. Write tests that truly test what students should know for each class/grade/subject and teach to them to your hearts content. If the test truly tests what should be learned there is no issue with teaching to the test. The problem is the tests don't test what students should be learning. Hence teaching to the test is a problem but the problem is the tests.

I cars were tested the way students are tested automotive companies would test a dozen components in each area of the car and call it good to go. Would you want to drive such a car? I wouldn't. I want ALL components tested before the car is released. Do the same for education. Test EVERY component and don't promote kids if they don't have enough of the material down to go on.

I have no problem teaching to the test if the test it a good measure of what I should be teaching. The tests our kids take aren't and the testing is so high stakes that we spend more time teaching kids how to take the test than teaching the material on the test.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,963,954 times
Reputation: 27520
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
Stop teaching to the test!!!
And while they ingrain you to make sure you hit each and every tested standard they constantly say "But we don't teach to the test". The sheer hypocrisy of it all makes me want to laugh out loud.

Like if they say it enough times we'll believe it ?
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