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Old 05-15-2015, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Germany
548 posts, read 373,269 times
Reputation: 659

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
IS Canada really doing so much better than us? The ranking was just based on math and science, and the metrics were not in the article. Is there a huge difference between #10 (Canada) and #28 (US)? The US has a comment (joint) and what that means was not explained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post

Just sayin'.


Universal Basic Skills - What Countries Stand to Gain - en - OECD
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Old 05-15-2015, 01:04 PM
 
Location: midwest
1,349 posts, read 951,954 times
Reputation: 800
I think "education" and the "education system" are two different things. The education system is a lost cause, too many people want to play politics and indoctrinate children in different ways.

So how do we use technology to "educate" children and bypass the educational system?

EveryCircuit by Igor Vytyaz
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ycircuit&hl=en

xPiano by cyandroid
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...aWQucGlhbm8iXQ..

Today cheap computers can simulate things in chemistry and physics that PhDs at major colleges could not have done in the 1980s. Anyone that claims to be an educator and is not worried about what this technology may do to education is too dumb to qualify for his job.

psik
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Old 05-15-2015, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,242 posts, read 3,395,295 times
Reputation: 8783
Just FYI -

The major professional organizations for the traditional liberal arts, ie Modern Language Association (English), American Historical Association (History) - they also advocate getting rid of the "education" major. Even if you're a pre-k through 3 generalist you should have an education in an actual subject like psychology or something. In my experience the worst teachers have "education" degrees and they often go into administration which is an even worse outcome.

Eliminate standardized testing. I like the common core's front end but hate the back end. Set basic benchmarks then challenge principals and teachers to step up or even exceed the standards - they will.

Kick out problem kids. If they disrupt class - three strike policy and YOU'RE OUT in boot camp. I've been in education 5 years and discipline problems are the single biggest barrier. If you have 20 kids that want to learn but 3 that don't, that 3 ruin it for everyone.

Track students appropriately - that means grouping classes by aptitude rather than age. If they're not cut out for academics don't force them. I'd say kids need traditional academics through about age 14 or 15 but after that if they can't cut why force them?

Stabilize funding. It's not about more money or less money. It's about knowing how much we're going to get so we can plan. State legislatures muck with the funding forumlas every damn session and so we enter legislative years with the following possibilities: 1) we'll be able to buy new computers and update our IT, 2) we'll be able to do that plus renovate a building, 3) we'll be in the same boat but slightly less so will need to cut back buying office supplies, 4) we'll need to do a reduction in force of 15% while at the same time increasing class size by 3 students each. WE NEVER KNOW.

Seriously, the superintendent in my district gives a presentation on the legislature's impact on our funding every year and it literally looks like that every year - we may be in great shape and can replace the air conditioning system in building 3 that stopped working! OR we may need to close whole campuses down.
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Old 05-15-2015, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,839 posts, read 1,576,851 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
We can agree to disagree.

Have a good day.
You'll have to add me to the list of people who disagree with you. If a child has a disruptive disability, that child needs to be in a special education class. If a healthy child just can't or won't behave in class, he needs to be dealt with by the school, preferably in a way that forces parents to do something about it. It's unfair for other children to have teacher's time wasted on the countless interruptions. The number one complaint I heard from my kids (all straight A students, although it doesn't take much to get A's in middle school) was that other kids were being disruptive or plain refused to do any work for a shared assignment. It was extremely upsetting for us as parents, after working very hard for years making sure that our kids take learning seriously, and strive to get good grades, to see their efforts wasted by the children who won't learn themselves and won't let teachers teach other kids. And their parents are #1 problem.
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Old 05-15-2015, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,839 posts, read 1,576,851 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by psikeyhackr View Post
I think "education" and the "education system" are two different things. The education system is a lost cause, too many people want to play politics and indoctrinate children in different ways.

So how do we use technology to "educate" children and bypass the educational system?

EveryCircuit by Igor Vytyaz
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ycircuit&hl=en

xPiano by cyandroid
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...aWQucGlhbm8iXQ..

Today cheap computers can simulate things in chemistry and physics that PhDs at major colleges could not have done in the 1980s. Anyone that claims to be an educator and is not worried about what this technology may do to education is too dumb to qualify for his job.

psik
Education is a stepping stone into the job market, among other things. Which, like it or not, tends to favor people who went to college. Where, like it or not, your kids would face a stiff global competition. Good luck bypassing that system. We need to fix it, not throw it away.
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Old 05-15-2015, 02:09 PM
 
27,993 posts, read 19,647,023 times
Reputation: 16471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
You'll have to add me to the list of people who disagree with you. If a child has a disruptive disability, that child needs to be in a special education class. If a healthy child just can't or won't behave in class, he needs to be dealt with by the school, preferably in a way that forces parents to do something about it. It's unfair for other children to have teacher's time wasted on the countless interruptions. The number one complaint I heard from my kids (all straight A students, although it doesn't take much to get A's in middle school) was that other kids were being disruptive or plain refused to do any work for a shared assignment. It was extremely upsetting for us as parents, after working very hard for years making sure that our kids take learning seriously, and strive to get good grades, to see their efforts wasted by the children who won't learn themselves and won't let teachers teach other kids. And their parents are #1 problem.
You're added to that list as well.
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Old 05-15-2015, 03:25 PM
 
Location: midwest
1,349 posts, read 951,954 times
Reputation: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
Education is a stepping stone into the job market, among other things. Which, like it or not, tends to favor people who went to college. Where, like it or not, your kids would face a stiff global competition. Good luck bypassing that system. We need to fix it, not throw it away.
The 'educational system' does not see that EVERYONE really understands accounting and economics. It makes sure that the majority of us are merely economic pawns brainwashed into competing with each other for status.

It is so hilarious to look at the futuristic 50 year old technology of the SR-71 Blackbird and then watch stupid television commercials for automobiles. Corporations are redesigning junk for nothing. Now they redesign operating systems to force people to upgrade every few years.

The schools are just another phase of the economic power game. Go into debt for credentials to qualify for the job market to make enough money to buy junk designed to become obsolete.

This is more educational than college economics courses:

The Screwing of the Average Man (1974) by David Hapgood
http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/rape10.shtml
http://www.amazon.com/screwing-avera.../dp/B0006W84KK

What would the economy be like if most college graduates had read that in the '70s?

and watched this:

The Age of Uncertainty: Episode 1 - The Prophets and Promise of Classical Capitalism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGSID_Uyw7w

psik
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Old 05-15-2015, 04:25 PM
 
28,906 posts, read 45,202,743 times
Reputation: 45815
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post
There are fabulous ideas on this thread. The best ones will take a lot of money. Hiring specialized, well paid teachers. Investing in arts, music, physical education. Create separate schools for different career paths, etc.

So now all we have to do is find all of the money we are going to use to do all this. Options: print more money, and send us into inflation, try to increase taxes on the rich and then cry when for some reason that doesn't actually bring in more money (according to historical statistics), take the money away from the welfare and food stamp program, take the money away from the healthcare program, take the money away from the soldiers and veterans, or steal from peoples 401ks.

The only idea on this thread that said a thing about saving money in one area so that you could spend it elsewhere was jumped on as being a horrible idea. It WAS a horrible idea.

BUT. What is wrong with our educational program is that everybody who is involved in making educational decisions is able to come up with very expensive ideas, but nobody is able to come up with ways to improve things WITHOUT SPENDING MORE MONEY.

Perhaps the reason Canada is doing so much better than us is because they are not an extraordinarily rich country, and are used to try to figure out how to improve things without spending more money. Here in the US, we are so quick to just throw money at all of our problems, because until now, that's what we had a lot of. Well, it's gone now.

Education is not going to improve in this country until people figure out how to be frugal, and quit thinking that the answer to all their problems is "well if the government could just give us more money...".
I actually had the answer to that: Fire two-thirds of education administrators. You can do it at random. The Department of Education as well. The salaries are obscene and all they do is create an ossified system where no change is possible. No telling how much good you'll do clearing out the bureaucratic deadwood.

We don't have a funding problem. We have an allocation problem.

Last edited by cpg35223; 05-15-2015 at 04:42 PM..
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Old 05-15-2015, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Heart of Dixie
12,448 posts, read 10,130,341 times
Reputation: 28069
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
...Fire two-thirds of education administrators. You can do it at random. The Department of Education as well. The salaries are obscene and all they do is create an ossified system where no change is possible. No telling how much good you'll do clearing out the bureaucratic deadwood.

We don't have a funding problem. We have an allocation problem.
Bravo .
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Old 05-15-2015, 04:59 PM
 
5,751 posts, read 3,038,463 times
Reputation: 15092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
My district has math specialists that work with the teachers at all grade levels.

Many districts still have vo-tech, at least here in CO.

I think there's been less elimination of recess/PE than you read in the media. I know my district is doing both. (Recess just in the elementary and middle schools)

I don't think the school lunch program is a major issue. It's not worth wasting time on, IMO.

Most districts still have arts programs; again, it's a media hype that they've all been eliminated.

My district has Weight-training 1 and 2; ... Adaptive PE for kids with special need.

I guess what I'm saying with some of this is that many posters should look into what their districts are already offering!
Which district are you in? We lived in D20 and it had many things that districts it bordered did not. Now that we no longer live in CO, our HS, while very good, doesn't have many of these at all and pretty much totally cut VOTech.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64 View Post
In higher education I would reduce federal loans available to students. College tuition is no small matter anymore and the incentive to increase tuition to meet shortfalls is largely due to the fact that the federal government backs non-dischargeable loans in large amounts.
This is one of the constant red herring issues brought up. Fed loans don't really increase the cost of college. For one thing, there is really only a small number of people who benefit from them, relative to those going. The biggest increase in college costs has actually come from states cutting their historical share of support and placing more of it on the student/family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I would change the education system by applying engineering principles. In engineering if it's important enough to have a specification it's important enough to test. I would start by writing exit exams for every year and subject taught and requiring students to pass them to pass the grade/class. As things are, there are standards but they're not really tested in any way that matters. IF they are tested it's the teacher testing them in their class. So the only ones tested are the ones that teacher taught. That could be 90% of them (no one gets them all) or 10% and it will vary from one school to another or one teacher to another. If you want me to teach it then test it. The proof I taught it and taught it well is my student's performance BUT you MUST make the test mean something to them. Our current tests mean nothing to them. I've seen kids come in, bubble one answer and then proceed to take a nap. If the kids don't care about the test you're not going to get good results. Even making passing the test a requirement for passing won't make them all care but it will make more of them care.
.
If you are going to follow good engineering principles, then you know that most of the value from tests comes very early in the process so you can make corrections. Testing at the end is only a quality control on the process, not the product. You can't test in quality, it has to be built in from the beginning, yet our whole test process is based on one big test at the end. Pretty much violates basic principles. Then statistically you would only test a few random samples and everyone would get the same score. That is if you really wanted to follow engineering QC. But of course we know there is too much variation in individuals to base everyone's score on a random sample. Which basically brings up back to you can't test in quality. And none of this even gets to the application of test design.

[quote=pkbab5;39628108]There are fabulous ideas on this thread. The best ones will take a lot of money. Hiring specialized, well paid teachers. Investing in arts, music, physical education. Create separate schools for different career paths, etc.
So now all we have to do is find all of the money we are going to use to do all this.
BUT. What is wrong with our educational program is that everybody who is involved in making educational decisions is able to come up with very expensive ideas, but nobody is able to come up with ways to improve things WITHOUT SPENDING MORE MONEY.
quote]

Why would you assume most of these improvements would cost more money? The money is there in many places, but poorly allocated. Here's an example. My kids elementary school had roughly the same number of students as my school (though mine was actually twelve grades in a single school). Their school also had roughly the same number of teachers as mine did. But whereas the school I attended had a management and support staff of about ten, the school my kids attended had a support staff much greater than the number of teachers. Same thing all the way up. You could go in tomorrow and eliminate 50% of the staff, apply that budget to teachers salaries, and come out ahead in education quality without a single impact.
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