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Good pensions that pay six figures salaries and health insurance until you die.
Do you feel that six figure pension the norm? I'm sure you can find a scattered number of examples, but I don't believe that is very common. My state system pays 51% of my highest three years' earnings. We have a county supplemental plan (which is not typical of most districts) that will pay an additional 25%. It's good. I'm not complaining. I am in a district that pays fairly well if you ignore the cost of living numbers but people retiring today will fall short of six figures. By the way, I contribute $ into those pension plans.
Yes. I am eligible for health insurance for life, but it isn't free. Are you thinking it is? Those who retire today pay about $545 a month for an individual plan. For the retiree plus one it is almost $1,200 a month.
Do you feel that six figure pension the norm? I'm sure you can find a scattered number of examples, but I don't believe that is very common. My state system pays 51% of my highest three years' earnings. We have a county supplemental plan (which is not typical of most districts) that will pay an additional 25%. It's good. I'm not complaining. I am in a district that pays fairly well if you ignore the cost of living numbers but people retiring today will fall short of six figures. By the way, I contribute $ into those pension plans.
Yes. I am eligible for health insurance for life, but it isn't free. Are you thinking it is? Those who retire today pay about $545 a month for an individual plan. For the retiree plus one it is almost $1,200 a month.
Well you are educating me about your system. So I am learning some things, this evening.
Good pensions that pay six figures salaries and health insurance until you die.
I don't know of many teachers who have that. Many teachers don't even get social security (they don't pay into that system either, but it's a fact that often if they did their benefits would be better not worse).
In 15 states, teachers have to work 10 years before they vest in their retirement plans. Many are long gone before they are eligible to collect one dollar in benefits, even as they are obligated to contribute a substantial portion to their plans each payday. Yet even though only half of teachers will collect their benefits, teacher-pension debt has climbed up to half a trillion dollars.
Teachers already pay for much of the program. In 2013, retiree premiums made up about 36 percent, according to Legislative Budget Board estimates, while the state chipped in 24 percent. Active teachers and school districts were the next biggest contributors, followed by federal subsidies and investment income.
Most likely not. You are correct on private and charter schools. The pay sucks and charters just rotate through new teachers. I was the 5th chemistry teacher in 10 years at the charter where I taught. It was typical to turn over 1/3 of the staff every year there. A teacher doesn't even have time to develop a good curriculum before they are on to the next teacher. After they let me go (for standing my ground on lab safety of all things) I heard that the next teacher didn't make it through the year.
Charter schools are for profit here in Michigan so they over crowd classrooms to get as many heads in as possible. Then they start expelling kids after the first head count day. My classes started the year with 36 students and I'd be down to around 28 per class by Christmas with the school keeping 75% of the money associated with the students who left. Where are those students going to go when there is no longer a public school option? Where will the students no one wants go? To schools that are now decimated by lack of funding? The students who require the most help will be the only ones left in the public schools and there won't be money to help them.
Unfortunately this move will drag down private schools too. What makes private schools great is that it's parents that care enough to pay for their child's education that use them. When everyone can use them they will be no better than the former public schools. In fact they'll be worse because you can't get quality people if you won't pay a quality wage. That's not an issue teaching a demographic where parents are affluent enough to pay their child's way but it will be when everyone can afford a private school.
Even worse is what this will do to the public school system. It will decimate it. There will be no public education choice because there won't be funding to keep the schools open. You will no longer have neighborhood schools where kids go to school together from kindergarten through graduation. On the bright side LOTS of for profit charters will open but parents won't have half the choice they think they will because they'll be lucky to find a school that has openings. It will be the schools choosing the students they will take not the parents choosing the school their children go to. Then parents will have to figure out things like transportation to and from school as most charters don't run local busses. Around here there are pick up/drop off points at malls for the kids with the kids whose parents cannot meet the bus in the afternoon left wandering the mall parking lot because in response to this problem the malls no longer allow unescorted minors into the building. They had too many kids roaming around during the afternoons.
This is not going to be as rosy as people who know nothing about education think it will be. It sounds great to have choices but choices only exist as long as there's a seat in the classroom you want your child in. Many parents will find themselves having to settle for far less than they wanted AND having do deal with transportation. I do think we need choices in education but I think this is the wrong approach. I think it will encourage home schooling by people who shouldn't home school too. Right now home schooling is pretty much limited to a demographic whose kids do very well no matter where you plant them. Middle class families with both parents in the home who can afford to have one parent stay home and homeschool. What happens to the quality of home schooling when parents who don't care and don't have a clue start keeping the kids home just to get the money?
My nephew is attending a charter school which is part of a larger group that stretches across several states. It's ran by a Muslim group from a country close to Europe. My nephew is special ed because he has a neurological issue and some behavior issues related to it. He is very bright, though.
Anyway, he was acting up in 7th grade, his first year there, and they wanted to do things their way and ignore American education laws. As soon as it was apparent that he was going to be more trouble than they wanted, they tried to exit him from the school. My brother, who is pretty well off, immediately hired an attorney and experts to intervene. It got pretty dicey for a while, but my brother prevailed, of course. As bad as it was there, it was worse at his zoned school since he has this neurological issue.
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Originally Posted by Rangerdude_Charlie
I agree with the others on here. I think it is high time we get the government out of education. It is a giant, big mistake. It doesn't work and just causes more problems. I agree, let it work, get rid of tenure. Tenure, in my experience, just protects bad people who get good benefits for life. Stop the insanity. Government is this giant black hole where all our taxes just disappear!
I was going to reply, but as usual, Ivory has succinctly responded.
The only thing I would add is that tenure in K-12 is really a misnomer. Tenure is really more of a post-secondary benefit. And my understanding is that it was to give professors academic freedom when teaching college students.
In K-12, it is usually pre-probationary and post-probationary. Once a teacher is post-probationary, the district can fire them using the contract that they put together. In many states, if not most, it is illegal for teachers to strike, so there is really no power on the side of the side negotiating the contract for the teachers, whether it is a union or association. Basically, the district can only fire teachers using as outline in the contract that they themselves wrote. Many, but not all, companies have employee handbooks that outline the procedures for firing someone. I don't think I would want to work for any company that didn't have something analogous.
Sure, it's more difficult to fire than just being at-will. But that's a good thing. Otherwise, it would be just like Ivory said.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
There was a time when the government was out of education and the result was most people were uneducated. You can't get the government out of education and guarantee kids are educated as with no government intervention there will be no one policing whether or not kids are educated.
Do you know what tenure is? It simply means a teacher has been around long enough that they cannot be fired without cause and for reasons that others were not fired for. They can still be fired with cause and doing your job poorly is cause enough to fire a teacher. Tenure just means I made it through a trial period and was deemed worth keeping. Tenure is needed for two reasons: 1) to enable teachers to teach without being micromanaged by administrators and 2) to stop districts from simply firing high paid teachers and replacing them with low paid teachers. What people like you don't get is that teaching isn't like other professions where there is competition to hire and retain the best workers. Teachers are expected to hire into a district and stay for life. There's no mobility in this profession and there is disincentive to move because you start over at the lowest pay grade if you do. Hence teachers need some kind of protection. Otherwise you'd have district letting teachers go as soon as they reach the highest pay grade. If that were the case few people who can do something else would want to go into teaching.
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Originally Posted by katykat01
Your comments regarding public education are exactly the reasons I support school vouchers. The high school you've described was exactly what I experienced as a teen and it's what I've witnessed when volunteering and working in local public schools. For the kids who want to learn, those repeat offenders are strong distractions day after day in the classrooms and hallways, making it difficult for others to learn. Why should the students who behave and want to learn suffer at the expense of those who don't care? That jeopardizes their futures!
Since I didn't attend a Catholic high school, I'm not sure how they handled disciplinary problems. I can't give you an honest answer for that one. I'm assuming they were less tolerant of bad behavior, since my friends who attended it didn't experience what I did: kids dealing drugs out of lockers, lots of fights, etc. That was foreign to them and they couldn't relate to my stories. My guess is that those kids knew what was expected of them from both their parents and the school, so they behaved accordingly.
I'm well aware that most of the problems the poorer public schools face are a direct result of poor parenting and not necessarily poor teaching. I've worked directly with the single mothers of children they can't afford to support; I've taken care of those babies born addicted heroin and crack; and I've been in their homes too. So when you see what those kids are dealing with at home, it's no wonder they can't behave in school. That said, not all children in poor public schools face the problems at home and can focus in school, so why shouldn't they be given the opportunity to study in a safer, more productive and supportive environment? With the bulk of the attention going to the kids who need more support for emotional problems, what happens to those who can actually function on a normal or higher level?
President Obama lives in Washington D.C., a city with failing public schools. Does he send his daughters to a failing inner city school? No, he doesn't. He sends them to the ultra-prestigious Sidwell Friends. Why do his daughters deserve a private school education if he supports public education and shuns school vouchers for those who want a better education?
One of my colleagues from my old job in NYC lived in a dangerous neighborhood, so she chose to send her daughter to a local Catholic school even though she wasn't Catholic (I don't believe she identified with any religion). She said her local public school was too dangerous and the education wasn't good. Her salary wasn't huge, but it was sacrifice she made for her child. I'm sure she would have appreciated the school voucher.
I agree that private schools are expensive, but they're expensive because they don't receive public funding. If parents can use a school voucher to help defray the cost and make up the difference through scholarships (which many of them offer) and/or pay the difference, then why not have it as a viable option? Those parents are most likely paying property taxes that support the local schools anyway, so why not be able to use those dollars to send your kids to the school of your choice? Those property taxes will continue to be paid long after those kids have graduated anyway.
I understand and even feel the same way when it is my children.
As a teacher, however, I look at the bigger picture. The students who need it the most, will be underserved even more with vouchers. The students who are chronic discipline issues will be turned away by all (except, of course, the local public schools, which will continue to decline as more of the cream is skimmed off). Those students will grow to be adults with only the bleakest outlook for their lives. Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if a minority group is being underserved, collectively, by the local schools? More mandates?
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Originally Posted by Macgregorsailor51
They select by scholastical ability.. "everyone who qualifies" is given a lottery number.. Just like several schools I am aware of in Fla. and Ill. If your child wasnt in the top 2 or 3 % they wouldnt qualify through the entrance exams. This is another dumb idea by the GOP , like right to work and no child left behind and a dozen others..This will be a Brain Drain..It wont happen everywhere but it will happen where ever there is a limited number of Scholastical High Achievers.. The N and NW Suburbs of Chicago do not have to contend with this issue, but most areas of the south will sink even lower than they are already because of it.. Like Immigration reform the GOP Screams More and Now, but NONE of their business owners will quit hireing illegals for starvation wages.. and Non-for profit part is a joke..
Be careful about making this a party line argument. The democrats are responsible for Common Core, RTTT, Arne Duncan, etc. There is plenty of blame to go around to both parties.
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Originally Posted by Jo48
Good luck if you have a Special Needs child, whether with physical and/or developmental disabilities.
^This. Eventually, when sped students are turned away again and again, a mandate will come out that requires that you have some percentage of sped students if you take government vouchers. Then the schools will try figure out how to figure out how to get the easier sped students. Then another mandate. And so on. And it won't be just sped students that triggers new mandates. They will keep piling up until schools that accept vouchers are no different than public schools pre-voucher.
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Originally Posted by Rangerdude_Charlie
Good pensions that pay six figures salaries and health insurance until you die.
I know there are a few schools out there with those kinds of salary maximums - usually located in high cost of living areas, but this is not the norm.
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Originally Posted by Rangerdude_Charlie
I think our current system is broken and needs major reform. My experience with the public education system is that too many tenure teachers could be mean and get away with it. Where I am currently at a professor who is addicted to pain meds is not currently teaching and still getting a salary. WTF? I have too many bad memories of teachers making me feel stupid and embarrassing me in front of the class. Not fun at all. I think it still needs to go. We need major reform.
Yes, it is broken. Yes, we do need major reform. Vouchers will not fix the real problems.
I don't know all the details for the professor where you work, but it is not the norm. Either the admin is extraordinarily lazy or we don't have all the facts.
I wouldn't trust most private schools (especially the religious ones) to provide a fair, unbiased education to my children. They have shown time and time again to have a strong stance against science and push conservative political values.
I have yet to see the school my kids attend showing a bias (non-Catholic private school) against science or push any political "value".
Before we put our kids in the private school they are in now they attended a Catholic school.
The bias was over-the-top socially liberal.
My good friend sends her kid to a public school in NJ.
A few nights ago she was studying with her middle school aged kid for a social studies test that was about the different religions in the world.
In the Judeo-Christian section she noticed that only 9 out of 10 commandments were listed. The second commandment was excluded.
When she asked the school PTB about it? The answer she was given was with regard to how it might be "too strongly" religious. She lives in a town that is heavily populated by Asians from every religious background who might be "offended".
But it's A-ok to teach THEIR religions?
Public school is also pretty damn scary with what they choose to teach or leave out based on "feelers".
The markets, like nature itself, abhor a vacuum ... or an imbalance. That's why the NEA lives in constant fear of losing its government-reinforced monopoly.
I have yet to see the school my kids attend showing a bias (non-Catholic private school) against science or push any political "value".
Before we put our kids in the private school they are in now they attended a Catholic school.
The bias was over-the-top socially liberal.
My good friend sends her kid to a public school in NJ.
A few nights ago she was studying with her middle school aged kid for a social studies test that was about the different religions in the world.
In the Judeo-Christian section she noticed that only 9 out of 10 commandments were listed. The second commandment was excluded.
When she asked the school PTB about it? The answer she was given was with regard to how it might be "too strongly" religious. She lives in a town that is heavily populated by Asians from every religious background who might be "offended".
But it's A-ok to teach THEIR religions?
Public school is also pretty damn scary with what they choose to teach or leave out based on "feelers".
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I flatly don't believe you. Off hand you made it up. No public school in NJ edited the ten commandmants.
But prove it. Cite the school or a source.
The schools sometimes do dumb things but we do not need made up ones.
I have lived in a place where they did this.. After much hoopla and a cpl years down the road, nobody was really taking advantage of it because it was not worth it...
...nobody was really taking advantage of it because it was not worth it...
I would have taken advantage of it. As it is, I have to pay for the inferior public school program (via taxes), and I have to pay the private school fees.
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I know there are a few schools out there with those kinds of salary maximums - usually located in high cost of living areas, but this is not the norm. 
