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Other countries have their own issues. In some ways, the U.S system is really good because of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th chance opportunities. It maximizes choice. In some of Europe if you screw up when you're 15, you are screwed for life.
I posted this on another thread but it's relevant here.
I'll use France as an example, since it's a big EU country, uses strict tracking, and is quite rigorous and demanding education system in general. France and the U.S. are pretty similar in the way their systems work up until the equivalent of about 8th grade - at that point they diverge dramatically and the pressure cooker begins.
Essentially if you do well on your tests at their equivalent of 9th grade, age 14 or 15, and continue to do well - you're pretty much set for life. Your education is also mostly subsidized - you pay a nominal fee. You will get a good job, guaranteed, but you're constrained. You can switch from physics to chemistry easily enough, but you will have great difficulty switching from literature to chemistry or vice versa. You are on art track or science track, period. You can switch but it's hard.
Each successive test that you pass at the critical junctures improves your opportunities and options, although within that chosen field - which is only partly chosen by the student. The student's mentors and teachers at Lycee (high school) and Licence Professionnelle (undergrad college) have a LOT of power over what that student's career options will be since they make recommendations based on their assessment of aptitude.
What's not talked about much is that France also has very high youth unemployment and its education system is quite racist not by intent but by outcome - it's heavily weighed against the immigrant or less "traditionally" French kids who can navigate the system with help of parental and institutional knowledge advantage. The kids who make it through the pressure cooker of the battery of tests are set for life, those who make it partway through the battery are somewhat set. The popular notion is that the less advanced kids get vocational training - that's actually not true - entrance to the good vocational tracks is only mildly less prestigious than university and just as prestigious in some ways.
If you screw up that test at age 15, there is a high chance you will not recover to make it through to the 2nd half of Lycee (high school) which is prep for university or the higher levels of their VoTech. That means university or tech school is not in the cards for you, period. Ever. Unless you can pay big time.
When you flunk out of the French system, which many do - they are not afraid to flunk you, you hit the ground on your butt, hard. There are not many options other than crap jobs - all the good jobs are preserved for the graduates, and keep in mind this is why they have 25% youth unemployment over there and most of them are the immigrant (Arab and African) kids and this is why they riot every few years.
There are only 83 public colleges and universities TOTAL in France - a country of 70 million. If you combine the populations of Texas and California, it's about 70 million - and there are 72 state universities between them - let alone the community colleges which puts the total number of public colleges and universities at over 200 with some of them having multiple branch campuses. In France they have no equivalent to community colleges. If you can't hack college prep or VoTech (not easy) you wash out in high school and are on your own with the general diploma which gets you service jobs at best.
They do have tech schools that serve the function of community colleges, sort of, in terms of vocational training - although the transfer function that our CCs have does not exist. However, you pay dearly for that if you didn't track into it when you had the chance and are trying to change careers or go back to school after having been out.
So pick your poison.
Last edited by redguard57; 08-19-2015 at 12:25 AM..
it so the dumber student in the class would look like he got educated, all political correctness, little johnny cant have his feeling hurt because he stupid.
This explains it in a nutshell. We're ALL the same. We ALL have the same abilities. All children are special. Everyone's a winner....
...only LIFE will differentiate. Whenever I hear of a shooting or other violent outburst I don't wonder why it happens. I wonder why it doesn't happen MORE because in protecting egos to the extent we do we are not preparing our children for life's realities. Life DOES care who is smarter or more talented. Life DOES care who gets it the first time and who takes three tries. Life does penalize you for laziness or lack of ability. I know this sound cruel but it's not. These lessons are best learned young because that is when you can learn the skills you need to work around your issues. AFTER graduation is too late. We are raising our kids to believe they can be/do anything when reality is they can't. None of us can. With unrealistic expectations and fragile egos I'm really amazed we don't have more school, mall, and theater shootings.
This explains it in a nutshell. We're ALL the same. We ALL have the same abilities. All children are special. Everyone's a winner....
...only LIFE will differentiate. Whenever I hear of a shooting or other violent outburst I don't wonder why it happens. I wonder why it doesn't happen MORE because in protecting egos to the extent we do we are not preparing our children for life's realities. Life DOES care who is smarter or more talented. Life DOES care who gets it the first time and who takes three tries. Life does penalize you for laziness or lack of ability. I know this sound cruel but it's not. These lessons are best learned young because that is when you can learn the skills you need to work around your issues. AFTER graduation is too late. We are raising our kids to believe they can be/do anything when reality is they can't. None of us can. With unrealistic expectations and fragile egos I'm really amazed we don't have more school, mall, and theater shootings.
I've heard you say similar things before but I'm guessing you did not raise your kids that way, I didn't raise my kids that way and most of my friends did not raise their kids that way. I know so many young adults that I watched grow up and are now responsible adults working long hours and not complaining because all of their friends are doing the same thing! Teens tend to be narcissistic creatures. They think that everyone is looking at them, judging them and they examine their actions way too minutely. But, thank goodness they grow out of that, generally before the end of HS, and realize that their actions have consequences. The ones that don't are the ones that make the evening news. It wouldn't be news if everyone acted stupid on a regular basis -news would be the kid that works hard.
I'm glad that our US schools have so many options for students and they are not committed to a career path at a young age like they are in other countries. I think there is room for improvement, but I think that's happening too.
I taught in France for a semester and currently teach at a public high school in the US. The US public school system is a freaking joke. Students here are so pampered and expect everyone to cater to them. Also, some of the things my colleagues do in class are borderline kindergarten. Like dumb games, etc. I refuse to dumb down my class like that.
I've heard you say similar things before but I'm guessing you did not raise your kids that way, I didn't raise my kids that way and most of my friends did not raise their kids that way. I know so many young adults that I watched grow up and are now responsible adults working long hours and not complaining because all of their friends are doing the same thing! Teens tend to be narcissistic creatures. They think that everyone is looking at them, judging them and they examine their actions way too minutely. But, thank goodness they grow out of that, generally before the end of HS, and realize that their actions have consequences. The ones that don't are the ones that make the evening news. It wouldn't be news if everyone acted stupid on a regular basis -news would be the kid that works hard.
I'm glad that our US schools have so many options for students and they are not committed to a career path at a young age like they are in other countries. I think there is room for improvement, but I think that's happening too.
Well, I'm not talking about how I raised my kids or how you raised yours. I'm talking about why schools are the way they are. We have been mandated with protecting egos and making sure everyone is the same. Everyone's a winner and no one is a loser. We pull the bottom up while pulling the top down and teach everyone to the same level of mediocrity.
I do think that kids need to learn what their limitations are young so they can develop the best strategies for dealing with them and we are failing our kids here. While most seem to turn out just fine I think it's a rocky road post graduation for a lot of them.
I don't want to commit kids to a career path young but we need to hold kids back who are not ready to move on. There needs to be remediation for kids who aren't ready to move on. Passing them as if it will just work itself out on its own in the future is not working. If Johnny is behind in reading in 4th grade chances are he'll be WAY BEHIND by 10th grade. We need to shore up Johnny's foundation not just pass him and expect him to figure it out on his own.
I taught in France for a semester and currently teach at a public high school in the US. The US public school system is a freaking joke. Students here are so pampered and expect everyone to cater to them. Also, some of the things my colleagues do in class are borderline kindergarten. Like dumb games, etc. I refuse to dumb down my class like that.
Thanks for the comparison to schools in France.
Over the years I've had several foreign exchange students say the same thing.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-19-2015 at 05:16 PM..
I taught in France for a semester and currently teach at a public high school in the US. The US public school system is a freaking joke. Students here are so pampered and expect everyone to cater to them. Also, some of the things my colleagues do in class are borderline kindergarten. Like dumb games, etc. I refuse to dumb down my class like that.
You can't make such a categorical remark.
Neither you nor I have visited every school in the country, and it has already been proven in this very thread that cited data is not always accurate or instructive in any meaningful way. New standards, while controversial, do have their good points, and there undeniably positive elements in American education.
The United States has its good school systems and its bad, it isn't fair to paint with such broad strokes.
Most of my family is still in France/Germany/Netherlands, and shockingly they have many of the same gripes we have on this very board.
I am not at all happy with the state of education in my state or our country, but I cannot be so disparaging as to cast down the entire system.
Neither you nor I have visited every school in the country, and it has already been proven in this very thread that cited data is not always accurate or instructive in any meaningful way. New standards, while controversial, do have their good points, and there undeniably positive elements in American education.
The United States has its good school systems and its bad, it isn't fair to paint with such broad strokes.
Most of my family is still in France/Germany/Netherlands, and shockingly they have many of the same gripes we have on this very board.
I am not at all happy with the state of education in my state or our country, but I cannot be so disparaging as to cast down the entire system.
Have you LISTENED to the teachers here?
Most of the complaints about kids being coddled come from the GOOD schools. The bad schools have their own issues usually stemming from demographics.
The problem isn't the system. It's society's expectations of the system. It's the fact we hold everyone accountable for a child's education except the child. We don't hold them responsible for working to learn.
Most of the complaints about kids being coddled come from the GOOD schools. The bad schools have their own issues usually stemming from demographics.
The problem isn't the system. It's society's expectations of the system. It's the fact we hold everyone accountable for a child's education except the child. We don't hold them responsible for working to learn.
Pretty much. If a student is failing my class, I get emails from parents and administrators asking what steps I've taken to help avoid this. I always wonder why the school doesn't email the student and parents and ask what steps they have taken to achieve at getting an F.
Another thing is that it's very difficult to "WOW" students. They are used to playing video games and things on their phone, so if your lessons aren't "fun" enough, they get bored.
I'm in my late 20s and I remember sitting in class for the entire block and working on work individually. My students would be bored out of their minds if they had to do that.
I'm not sure what's worse... helicopter parents who smother their children, or parents who don't give a crap about their kid. I have to deal with both, but it's usually the latter.
The schools cannot make them smart any more than they can make the short ones tall or the ugly ones attractive. They have to be taught at a level where they can absorb some info, as limited as that might be.
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This explains it in a nutshell. We're ALL the same. We ALL have the same abilities. All children are special. Everyone's a winner....
Why is the Education system so dumbed down?
