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Old 10-25-2015, 02:24 PM
 
4,673 posts, read 3,054,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
I haven't found a thread that asks this question, so I thought I'd launch this as a discussion topic. I read recently that the average homeschooled child costs about $600 a year to educate, while a publicly-school child costs $9000-$10,000 a year to educate. And yet, there's a great deal of evidence which demonstrates that homeschooled children do just as well, if not better than public-schooled kids.

The question is thus - in the interest of saving money, shouldn't local and state governments do all they can to promote the homeschool movement, seeing how it's so much cheaper and quite possibly more effective?

Even if parents were offered a credit of $5000 a year per child, that would basically cut costs in half for public schooling for those children, and it would enable many more parents to educate their children at home (considering they're having to forego working at a job, etc.) Would this be a good idea or no?

Currently, about 3% of school-age children in the USA are being homeschooled - if this was increased to say, 10%, or even 15% - it would certainly take the pressure off overloaded school districts - no need to keep building new school buildings (or those horrible trailers they use around here). It'd be easier to have smaller class sizes with fewer students in the system, and with more parents having the flexibility to homeschool, perhaps many children would be spared bullying (which goes on despite our best attempts to eradicate it) and misdiagnosing of ADHD just because they fidget a bit too much in class.

Am I on the right track here, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Maybe it got discussed later in thread, but I'd like to see who says it only costs $600/year to homeschool! I was homeschooled and I'm absolutely sure it cost significantly more then that. Books, sports, travel time (gas), organization fee's, classes at community colleges, very few activities are free. I see no way one could only spend $600 a year, unless they literally never leave home, and I didn't even think about food costs. I knew very few homeschooled kids who stayed home all day everyday. Almost everyday I had some sort of class, activity, sport, event, etc. that we had to go to. I would also argue that the kids who do stay home the most are likely the worst performers in both social aspects and educational aspects. The best part of homeschooling isn't learning at home, it's getting to choose who your children learn with, who influences your children. That's not possible at public or private schools. Now lets factor in that mother working while the child is at school, now the cost difference isn't even close, public schooling is far cheaper for families.

I also do not think families should be given tax credits for homeschooling and it should not be promoted by the state or any form of government. School districts should work with homeschooled kids and families and allow them to take classes part time, my school district did this, even though I personally never took advantage of it.

The reason I don't want to promote homeschooling and give tax credits is because I don't want failed parents educating their children simply so they can receive a new form of welfare which is how a tax credit would work. We already see this happen occasionally in foster homes.

I agree homeschooling is good as long as the family has educated and good parents. According to you 3% of children are homeschooled and I agree a large percentage of those turn out great, but, and here's the big problem, is that there are parents who should not be teaching their children and are incapable of doing so. When that happens, that childs life is basically ruined and think of the cost in the long run from government services providing for them once they are adults incapable of getting a job. That's a big risk, and it would happen far more frequently if people start doing this to save money or because the state promotes it.

Most of my close friends were homeschooled and I don't oppose homeschooling at all, but it's not for everyone, and shouldn't be treated that way. It's a good niche way to educate if a family has the means. I will not be homeschooling my children, my wife has a good job and has no interest in homeschooling and neither do I.
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Old 10-25-2015, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,387 posts, read 32,349,503 times
Reputation: 14639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100 View Post
How is this comparison being measured?
You look at districts that have predominantly the same demographic that home schools. That means you remove the worst schools from the comparison. Home schooling's claim to fame is they're better than average but average includes some pretty dismal schools where kids lack the security and support available to homeschooled kids. Any teacher will tell you that involved parents make a huge difference. Homeschooled kids have a parent at home whose job it is to be involved with them yet all they can say is their kids do better than average. IMO that's pretty sad once you consider demographics. They should do FANTASTIC. I know from experience that kids from two parent households with ample income and parents who care about education do FANTASTIC in public school. Why don't they when homeschooled? IMO homeschooling should at least compare to the best schools out there but all they can say is they're better than average??? They should be counted among the best.

My school isn't one of the top twenty in the state because we're great teachers. It's because of demographics. Our kids don't worry about whether there will be dinner on the table or whether there will be someone to take care of them after school. It may be the nanny but care is care. Someone to help with homework is someone to help with homework. They don't come to school hungry. They have supplies they need. For the most part they have parents who care (even the best areas have losers and their kids struggle just as they do anywhere else maybe even more because they see that the other kids have so much that they don't.). Our graduation rate is high and our state test scores are bragged about. The vast majority of our kids go to college and do well but it's not because we're great teachers. It's because they have role models who are college educated. College has been the plan all along for them. Growing up in a stable home where education is valued gives kids a STRONG advantage over others. So why doesn't home schooling rate up there with my district instead of just being better than average? These are kids who are usually from two parent households that have enough money that they can afford to have one parent stay home and they have parents who care enough about education to provide it themselves. So why aren't they rocking it out of the park? I'm serious when I say give me a room full of kids from two parent households with enough money to afford one parent at home and parents who care about education and I will look like a rock star because they will be reaching for the stars. These are the kids who fare the best in school. Their average is nowhere near average.

ETA: Kids who do poorly disproportionately skew the average. I have given tests where the average is above 80% if I ignore the two grades in the 20's but less than 70% if I include them. For this reason I do not post averages for my tests. A few kids can make it look like the class did poorly when it was just a few kids who did poorly. Remember that the worst schools really drag down state averages. Saying you're better than average isn't saying much and that is all homeschooling can say so I'm not impressed. However, individually, one must weigh their options. If it's not possible to move to a better area so your kids can go to better schools better than average might be better than what they'd get otherwise. Whether homeschooling is the right choice depends on your options. Personally, my choice would be to move to a better area. IMO the combination of parents who care working together with a good school beats anything else.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-25-2015 at 04:25 PM..
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Old 10-25-2015, 03:59 PM
 
3,060 posts, read 2,328,796 times
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Homeschooling should be paid of course - but the parents must score above some level in a 12th grade SCAT-STEP or equivalent exam. Or not get reimbursed, and outright arrested if they are too dumb to teach beyond whatever grade they set out to purportedly teach (it happens). It's a double edged sword. A standardized test, assigning a max grade that they can competently teach should be required. You want taxpayer-funded education money - you must be up to the task.

My neighbors are dolts but take that homeschooling money as a supplement to EBT.
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Old 10-25-2015, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,387 posts, read 32,349,503 times
Reputation: 14639
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinbrookNine View Post
Homeschooling should be paid of course - but the parents must score above some level in a 12th grade SCAT-STEP or equivalent exam. Or not get reimbursed, and outright arrested if they are too dumb to teach beyond whatever grade they set out to purportedly teach (it happens). It's a double edged sword. A standardized test, assigning a max grade that they can competently teach should be required. You want taxpayer-funded education money - you must be up to the task.

My neighbors are dolts but take that homeschooling money as a supplement to EBT.
IMO homeschooling parents should pass the same exams that teachers pass to become certified. I never considered homeschooling because I know I'm not an expert in all subjects. The math/science education I could give my kids would rock it out of the park but history and English would be lacking and forget the arts. I don't have an artistic bone in my body.

I recently took a class in reading intervention that was an eye opener. I know NOTHING about teaching reading. I know how to read but I had no idea how to identify and address common reading issues. Even after taking the class I don't think I could do it. We need to keep in mind that no matter how much we know what we don't know outweighs what we do by a lot.
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Old 10-25-2015, 04:41 PM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
10,173 posts, read 5,994,894 times
Reputation: 11634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
You look at districts that have predominantly the same demographic that home schools. That means you remove the worst schools from the comparison. Home schooling's claim to fame is they're better than average but average includes some pretty dismal schools where kids lack the security and support available to homeschooled kids. Any teacher will tell you that involved parents make a huge difference. Homeschooled kids have a parent at home whose job it is to be involved with them yet all they can say is their kids do better than average. IMO that's pretty sad once you consider demographics. They should do FANTASTIC. I know from experience that kids from two parent households with ample income and parents who care about education do FANTASTIC in public school. Why don't they when homeschooled? IMO homeschooling should at least compare to the best schools out there but all they can say is they're better than average??? They should be counted among the best.

My school isn't one of the top twenty in the state because we're great teachers. It's because of demographics. Our kids don't worry about whether there will be dinner on the table or whether there will be someone to take care of them after school. It may be the nanny but care is care. Someone to help with homework is someone to help with homework. They don't come to school hungry. They have supplies they need. For the most part they have parents who care (even the best areas have losers and their kids struggle just as they do anywhere else maybe even more because they see that the other kids have so much that they don't.). Our graduation rate is high and our state test scores are bragged about. The vast majority of our kids go to college and do well but it's not because we're great teachers. It's because they have role models who are college educated. College has been the plan all along for them. Growing up in a stable home where education is valued gives kids a STRONG advantage over others. So why doesn't home schooling rate up there with my district instead of just being better than average? These are kids who are usually from two parent households that have enough money that they can afford to have one parent stay home and they have parents who care enough about education to provide it themselves. So why aren't they rocking it out of the park? I'm serious when I say give me a room full of kids from two parent households with enough money to afford one parent at home and parents who care about education and I will look like a rock star because they will be reaching for the stars. These are the kids who fare the best in school. Their average is nowhere near average.

ETA: Kids who do poorly disproportionately skew the average. I have given tests where the average is above 80% if I ignore the two grades in the 20's but less than 70% if I include them. For this reason I do not post averages for my tests. A few kids can make it look like the class did poorly when it was just a few kids who did poorly. Remember that the worst schools really drag down state averages. Saying you're better than average isn't saying much and that is all homeschooling can say so I'm not impressed. However, individually, one must weigh their options. If it's not possible to move to a better area so your kids can go to better schools better than average might be better than what they'd get otherwise. Whether homeschooling is the right choice depends on your options. Personally, my choice would be to move to a better area. IMO the combination of parents who care working together with a good school beats anything else.
So you are measuring results based on standardized test scores, graduation rates, and whether or not the student moves on to college.
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Old 10-25-2015, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,387 posts, read 32,349,503 times
Reputation: 14639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100 View Post
So you are measuring results based on standardized test scores, graduation rates, and whether or not the student moves on to college.
I'm looking at what is available. That is what is available. The homeschooling demographic does better on standardized tests in public schools. Why wouldn't they when homeschooled? This should be especially tests like the SAT which focuses on reasoning ability moreso than content learned.
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Old 10-25-2015, 04:54 PM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
10,173 posts, read 5,994,894 times
Reputation: 11634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
IMO homeschooling parents should pass the same exams that teachers pass to become certified. I never considered homeschooling because I know I'm not an expert in all subjects. The math/science education I could give my kids would rock it out of the park but history and English would be lacking and forget the arts. I don't have an artistic bone in my body.

I recently took a class in reading intervention that was an eye opener. I know NOTHING about teaching reading. I know how to read but I had no idea how to identify and address common reading issues. Even after taking the class I don't think I could do it. We need to keep in mind that no matter how much we know what we don't know outweighs what we do by a lot.
No one is an expert in all subjects. People need to get beyond this inaccurate notion that home schooled children are limited to whatever their parents can teach them.

When we home schooled, my daughter took drawing and painting classes from real artists, courtesy of the charter school. She took a puppet making class at the local community college. She took music appreciation for a year from a credentialed teacher. Another year she played the flute, in a home school band, taught by a credentialed teacher. She took a year of Spanish from a credentialed teacher. She took a creative writing class one semester from a credentialed teacher. She enrolled in a social studies club which met once a month for an afternoon, organized and run by three credentialed teachers. The students would do activities based on what we had been learning independently at home, and a packet would be handed out for the next month's topics. The same teachers ran multiple groups for different ages.

Are you noticing a theme? None of those classes were taught by me. All of the students in those classes were home schoolers.
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Old 10-25-2015, 05:01 PM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
10,173 posts, read 5,994,894 times
Reputation: 11634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I'm looking at what is available. That is what is available. If home schooling is so great there's no reason homeschooled kids wouldn't do better on tests. Especially tests like the SAT which focuses on reasoning ability moreso than content learned.

What would you measure to determine the success of a program?
My concern was the success of my child, not of any program.

As a teacher, do you put more weight in your own assessment of a student's progress or on a standardized test score?

Personally, I do not think standardized test scores are the ultimate measure of success. I think this is the crux of what is wrong with our public education system. Government wants teachers to teach to the test, instead of giving them freedom to teach as s/he thinks best.
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Old 10-25-2015, 05:10 PM
 
6,319 posts, read 6,261,799 times
Reputation: 11954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100 View Post
It is difficult to give your opinion any weight, since you keep repeating the same incorrect things while declining to state how you formed your opinion.

Home schooling does not deny children interaction with others. It simply requires a bit more effort than it does for children who attend a traditional school.
I'm far more interested in the Proof of the Success of Homeschooling.

Does anyone have any College Entry stats?

How those kids do in college, once they're outside the womb?
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Old 10-25-2015, 05:20 PM
 
1,902 posts, read 1,736,396 times
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I think people's perceptions and opinions of homeschooling are shaped by what they have observed, and the variance is enormous.

When we first started our own education journey we knew many home school families. For many, not all of course, it was an excuse not to do much of anything. There were a couple of friends who enrolled their kids in school based on our very positive experience. They all pulled their kids out after a time for various reasons. Some reasons were because the kids couldn't hack it socially, or it was too hard, or because having an actual schedule was too much of a change. This left us with a really negative impression of homeschooling.

Fast forward to the present - we now have a college freshman and high school senior. We live in another part of the country. We have a number of quality private schools, some of the highest ranking public high schools in the state and a very large home school community. I have never been interested in homeschooling for our family, but the home schooled kids here are very impressive.

My kids attend(ed) a rigorous college prep private school that welcomes qualifying home schoolers to attend part time or take a desired class, perhaps an AP course or a needed science credit. They are able to play sports on our teams. These kids are smart, socially relevant, and well liked by full time students. Some of them are incredible athletes. Of the ones I know, none have had a problem being accepted to multiple universities.

I still have no desire or regret about not homeschooling, but I have seen how it can be done correctly and have respect for those parents who have done such an outstanding job with their kids.
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