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Old 10-25-2015, 07:05 PM
 
8,700 posts, read 5,062,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Standardized tests are one measure. Colleges put a lot of weight on them for a reason. Like it or not this is an important measure for our kids.

I don't put more weight on my own assessment of a student because usually there isn't much difference between my assessment and their test scores. I can tell you who will and who will not do well on the tests before they open the booklet. There usually isn't a disparity between the two and when there is the test score is often the better indicator (colleges know this which is why they attach scholarships to test scores as well as to GPA's). Grades are often inflated through things like extra credit and having help with the work or deflated because the student is struggling with life issues that leave little time for studies. While you can have a bad day and score lower than you should on the tests it's not likely you'll score higher than you should. You either can or can't do it on your own. I was a D student in high school but scored well enough on my ACT and SAT to get into several colleges. I was a straight A student in college. The test was a better assessment of my ability than was how my teachers evaluated me. As a teacher I cannot get into a student's head and figure out what the problem is just as my teachers couldn't. What they didn't know is that I had to go straight from school to the baby sitters and pick up my youngest siblings then get home, start dinner, get the laundry done and have the vacuuming done before my mom got home from work. After dinner I had the dishes to do. There wasn't much time for homework so it rarely got done. However that doesn't mean I didn't learn and I wasn't smart. I always did well on the tests and they were always asking why I could do that well and not do well gradewise. The issue was just not having the time to do the work.

I have no issue with high stakes testing as long as the test actually measures what it needs to measure. Write the test well and I will teach to it. There's nothing wrong with teaching to a well written test. Personally I think we're going about this wrong. I think there should be an exit exam for every grade and subject that must be passed to move on. I think we need to take the decision to socially promote away from schools and quit pushing kids forward who don't have the prerequisite skills to succeed. If I had it my way I'd toss out the standardized tests and replace them with final exams that measure what the student should have learned and needs to know to move on. Testing is not the issue. The question is how well are the tests written. When it comes to college success the SAT seems to be a good indicator of success. Grades aren't. I've seen more than one good student flunk out of college. Grades are more of an indicator of how well you play the game than anything else. I had a student a couple of years ago who'd ask questions like "What's a square?" when she was taking tests in geometry. She was an A student because she knew how to play the game...to memorize enough to get through a test...she was shocked by her low SAT score. I wasn't.

With the caveat that many students prep for the tests and have higher scores because of that, I'd say the test score is probably the better indicator. Sometimes kids just don't play the game well. Sometimes they're skilled at the game but not as smart as the appear. I can't speak to the tests used at the lower levels. My experience is with the ACT and SAT because those are the tests given at the level I teach. I have no clue how the meaps correlate to ability. I see a pretty strong correlation between the ACT and SAT and ability. Of course this is personal experience. I haven't researched how well these tests predict success.
In some states, home schoolers are required to take standardized tests. If they aren't in your state and you feel they should be, perhaps that is something you should call to the attention of your state representative.

Home schoolers who want to go to college take the SAT and ACT too, the same as traditional school students.

Yes, I agree that school is a game and one can learn to play the game well without learning much else.
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Old 10-25-2015, 07:12 PM
 
8,700 posts, read 5,062,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
So how do you know they are more successful than they would have been with both school and you helping them?
Obviously I don't. What I do know is that school was not going well. The three years away from traditional school benefited her greatly. I wished that we could have continued longer, but there were reasons we could not. She didn't want to go back to school, but she adjusted and did well.
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Old 10-25-2015, 08:44 PM
 
4,750 posts, read 3,481,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Why shouldn't a parent have the qualifications of a teacher before taking over the roll of teacher? I wouldn't go as far as to require certification but a homeschooling parent should be able to pass the exams teachers pass to get their certs.
It's because I don't want the government involved. The only thing my state (Georgia) requires is that you declare that you're homeschooling your child.

GA law requires: [list][*]Parent have a high school diploma or G.E.D.[*]4.5 hours a day for 180 days (but you don't have to prove it) each year[*]To cover the 5 content areas (math, english language arts, science, social studies, and reading)[*]Test your child at the end of every 3rd grade (grades 3, 6, 9, and 12) and the test must be nationally standardized
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Old 10-25-2015, 09:30 PM
 
3,771 posts, read 5,449,546 times
Reputation: 2989
My nieces and nephews are home schooled. They are 3 years ahead in math and reading. They attend a 2 day a week school for home schooled kids, where they can take 3 classes of their choice. They go on field trips with other home schooled kids. They take music or dance classes and sports. They read an entire 100+ page book a night before bed above their grade level for fun.

The benefit of being home schooled is you don't have to sit in class while the teachers explain things over and over to the kids that don't get it the first time. It allows kids to move at their own pace, which can be a lot faster than the bottom 20% that the teacher teach to.
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Old 10-25-2015, 09:55 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 6,181,173 times
Reputation: 3835
Quote:
Originally Posted by lepoisson View Post
I don't think homeschooling should be encouraged, unless the child really cannot function (disability or gifted) in a public/private K-12 environment. A nice alternative could be one of the many online school programs. But those are really just a regular school, just done online from a computer.

A lot of homeschoolers only homeschool their kids because they don't want them attending school with non-Bible thumpers. Or because they are trying to shelter the kid.
Or because the curriculum and pedagogy of state schools suck.

Public School via worksheet with bubble-in answers:
"The area of a rectangle is 12 sq m. If the length is 4 m, what is is the Perimeter of the rectangle?" Bubble in the right answer.

Child (4th grade) bubbles in 14.

Mother:
"How did you get to 14"?

Child:
"Well...I just did .... (not sure how to articulate).

Mother:
"But can you explain to me how exactly you got there? What math operations did you do?
Can you write them down for me?"

Child:
The teacher told us that we can use whatever strategy we want as long as we get to the right answer.

Mother:
Sure - show me your strategy in writing. Did she not teach you how to write down the steps and operations you did so you can show the logic of how you got to the answer?

Child:
No. She doesn't ask us to write anything other than pick the right answer.

Mother:
What is the formula for the area of the rectangle? .... What about the Perimeter?

Child:

Says formulas but starts being very uncomfortable, clearly not understanding why mother can't just let go and simply be happy with the "bubble in" approach, like the school was. Especially if the answer is correct.
Isn't it correct? Why can't I just bubble in?

Mother:
Yes, it is correct but I still want to know how you got there. What if the area of the rectangle had been 31488 and one side was 123? How much will the Perimeter be then?

Child:
But this is above my level, why do you give me high-school level problems?

Mother:

It is not high-school level. You can do these operations - but even if you couldn't do the calculations...can you show me what these operations would be without doing the calculations?; I am not really interested in the final answer...I just need to see what operation you would write to find out the answer.

Child:
Starts crying.
"But we only need to give the AN-SWEEEEER! ...At school the teacher just tells us to bubble in and we can use our own strategies even if we don't write any operations".

Conclusion:
This is what public school MC education looks like. Stay away if you can help it.
No wonder American public school kids SUCK at math.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpsJqZkCHAk

RESTING MY CASE.


Well...I take that back, it's not at rest yet.

FYI, US public school: the discipline called Mathematics is done on GRAPH paper note-books with stringent requirements that the student explain his train of thought in math language, systematically, with formulas and operations, step by step, taking as much space as they need to enunciate their demonstrations. Not with an "answer" based on gut feelings and vague memories.

The "FINAL ANSWER" is what counts the least in mathematics - even if the child will have to bubble in an answer in standardizes tests.
In day to day pedagogy, however, your job is to develop students' problem solving skills by REQUIRING them to spell out their logic on paper.

But nice try.
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Old 10-25-2015, 10:46 PM
 
16,021 posts, read 17,810,319 times
Reputation: 15804
Quote:
Originally Posted by cindersslipper View Post
I'm far more interested in the Proof of the Success of Homeschooling.

Does anyone have any College Entry stats?

How those kids do in college, once they're outside the womb?
While it is difficult to say exactly what the stats are, here is one report.

Home-Schooled Teens Ripe for College - US News

Quote:
Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers*—66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent—and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
and here is another:
15 Key Facts About Homeschooled Kids in College - OnlineCollege.org

They get into highly selective colleges.
Highly Selective College Admissions - Homeschool Success
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Tennessee at last!
1,886 posts, read 2,014,639 times
Reputation: 3790
Quote:
Originally Posted by cindersslipper View Post
Think back to your own childhood.

The most profound and memorable experiences you have with your peers almost definitely occurred when adults weren't about.

Home schooling denies children this sort of interaction, entirely. You simply cannot schedule or fake the experience of growing up with a village around you.
Ok, I thought back and about the only time I can think of that did not have adults around was when I walked back and forth to school. Even then there were adults around, just not with me, as they either jogged for exercise or walked their own kids who were younger.

My scouts, school, and neighborhood activities were always supervised.

Are you saying that kids attending public schools do not have adults supervising them? Our crappy school district even provided recess, bus, and lunch supervision and a teacher in each class. Can not imagine there is much unsupervised time at a public school.....

OH and my best experiences had adults--My 5th grade teacher taught the class how to waterpaint, and I learned that I could make a painting worth a frame. A Girl Scout camporee where we won first place for best campsite, best meals and a bunch of other things, and we learned that when we worked together and followed the directions we had learned over the years we could win almost every award for the County. No, none of my great and best things happened walking to school....without the adults around....


My kids have a village, they actually live in a village. They just do not attend the local village school. They are not chained to their rooms. They are out and about in the community daily.

Also, homeschooling does not deny any experiences--you ever been to a Boy's and Girl's Club? Its a lot like school--instruction, free play, organized play, lots of social interactions. This weekend my son went as an individual to Boy Scout Camp. He had never been to the camp before and knew no one that was going. But when the others in his troop could not go he wanted to go by himself. There were 4 boys without troops at the camp. And yes, he had badge classes to attend part of the time, with an adult leader, and lots of free time, unsupervised, and had to check in 4 times a day as he did not have a troop. He has confidence to go into this type of a social situation, and make friends and have fun. My kids are very well developed socially. They are often considered leaders in social situations.

I think that you have decided that you do not like homeschooling, but I believe that you have not been exposed to it enough to know what is encompasses. And talking, or rather writing. to you is just a waste of time as you are firm in your uninformed opinion...


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Old 10-25-2015, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Tennessee at last!
1,886 posts, read 2,014,639 times
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post

No. Home schooling actually isn't that effective. It just appears that way because the demographic that homeschools is the same demographic that does well in publics school but when you compare them to public schools you include the ENTIRE demographic not just that one


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
I'm just going to quote this so people can see it again and hopefully reality will set in for some.
Hmm...in my case my kids attended K-1, and then 3 at the local public school. They were both classified as ESL as they are adopted from Guatemala at 2.5 years old and Mayan was their first language. However they ONLY spoke English at the time of testing. So they had 2.5 years of even hearing English at the time they started K. Even then, they both tested as advance in language development and vocabulary, higher than most English only kids.

Oh, and my son is Special Ed, needs help with language arts - reading mainly. Math comes easily. Daughter has no learning issues.

OH, and I am a single parent that works full time, but can do it on a flexible schedule so my kids can be homeschooled, though at times with tutors or other providers.

So exactly WHAT demographics is it that says that they should be doing so well?

adopted as a toddler?

ESL?

Special ED?

raised by a single parent?

OR is it that they have a parent who cares---and many kids in public schools have that!

I know of many ESL, adopted, Special Ed kids who are homeschooled...

Last edited by lae60; 10-25-2015 at 11:49 PM..
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Tennessee at last!
1,886 posts, read 2,014,639 times
Reputation: 3790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
So how do you know they are more successful than they would have been with both school and you helping them?
That is an easy one for me, at the end of 1st grade my son was at 1.1 level. He made no progress all year. He had memorized the reading books rather than learn how to read them. I had had meetings with the 1st grade teacher and told her he could not read before Christmas. (I actually was a classroom volunteer once a week.) She said he was one of the better readers in the class. I told her that he memorized the books, and she did not believe it until 3/4 through the school year. At the end of 1st he was a year behind, and we spent hours each night doing pointless busywork.

So I homeschooled him in grade 2, got him caught up and returned him to school in grade 3. They tested him and he was a little above grade level--3.3, so THEY LET HIM SLIDE. By mid semester he was at 2.7 --lower than the beginning of school so I pulled him from school and just homeschooled him since then.

I personally did not have time to do the busywork with my kid from school and actually teach him with a program that would allow him to achieve. So it was easier to drop the school's 2-3 hours of junk work each night and just do the homeschool curriculum that works for him.

So, nope he would not be more successful with school and home together, just stressed with no life from too much work....
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:30 AM
 
1,313 posts, read 1,692,308 times
Reputation: 1972
Quote:
Originally Posted by cindersslipper View Post
I'm far more interested in the Proof of the Success of Homeschooling.

Does anyone have any College Entry stats?

How those kids do in college, once they're outside the womb?
More go to college, more have a greater number of credits upon entry, more graduate, more have greater success and higher GPAs at the beginning and end of their college careers, more participate at a greater frequency in local community service than the general population, and most are found to be well socialized, or even more mature than their peers, having had greater flexibility to spend time with adults as well as other children. They have greater self-esteem than their peers and overall exhibit well developed emotional, psychological and social development.

Well documented. Google is your friend.
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